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Andover.Net

 Quake 1 GPL'ed
Posted by Hemos on Tuesday December 21, @09:13PM
from the only-a-matter-of-time dept.
WarSpite was the first of many to write with the news that id has open-sourced the Quake 1 Source Code. This includes WinQuake, GLQuake, QuakeWorld, and GLQuakeWorld. Yes, it's been released under the GPL[?]. id's ftp site got the goods.

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 Related Links WarSpite the Quake 1 Source Code ftp site More on Quake Also by Hemos

 This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted. You know what this means... (Score:2, Funny) by jawad (jawad@nycap.rr.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:17PM EST (#1) (User Info) http://jawad.org/ A new and better way to kill processes in your system! I'm glad that id open sources their games when they have no "value" (read: ability to be sold) anymore. Go id! First Post of 2000 (EST) Re:You know what this means... (Score:0, Redundant) by CaptainCarrot (carrot@watch.ankh-morpork.gov) on Tuesday December 21, @09:32PM EST (#32) (User Info) I'd be happier if they'd GPL their level maps, too. Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:32PM EST (#114) I'd be happier if they'd GPL their level maps, too. They *have* GPL'd their level maps. It's part of the game. The GPL is designed to extend not only to everything it touches, but also to everything that it touches, touches. We may have to bring suit against them for it, but it's quite obvious that they have to turn everything over to us. Read the GPL. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:2, Informative) by spinkham on Tuesday December 21, @10:44PM EST (#132) (User Info) Ye gods.. Data files are NOT code. The GPL is also only enforced on the licensee, the licenser is free to GPL or not parts of the original code, if they do not themselves distribute them togeather. For example, I could write a program that says, "Hello, world!" and also says "How are you?". It would be my perogative to release only the "Hello, world!" function under GPL, and a version under a completely different license with both functions. I am the copyright holder for all the code, and can license it in all ways that I want.. Whatever codebase I merge other peoples GPL'd code into must all be opened, however, because I am not the copyright holder and cannot relicense the code. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:53PM EST (#141) I think you're wrong. Ask Richard. Consider Bison. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by spinkham on Tuesday December 21, @11:13PM EST (#177) (User Info) The bison thing was about code. This is about data. Check out the whole thread started by post 146. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:26PM EST (#193) Turing has shown that code and data are one. And Richard, being the Lisp uberhacker, knows this. Well, all we can do is wait and see. Free software will win. I promise you that. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:03AM EST (#218) Oh, Christ. Here come the GPL Nazis. You people remind me of religious fanatics, only not so warm and fuzzy. It's real simple, folks. The source released under the GPL is for the Quake executable. Said executable loads the maps into memory and generates the displays, models, and so forth based on that data. The data is NOT the code, no matter what Turing postulated. Turing was speaking in a general sense, in that all data is stored in memory in the same manner as executable code. Well, I can store a banana in a fruit basket, and put an orange in there too, and say they're both fruit. It's true, they are both fruit. That doesn't mean an orange is a banana. GPL my word processor. Go ahead and do it. But don't you DARE try to claim that you own my documents, simply because the word processor was GPL'd. Free software will win. I promise you that. Go play with your Taco Bell cup, the one with Natalie Portman on it. Free software will "win" if it's better, cheaper, and easier than the alternatives. People don't use Word because Microsoft has brainwashed them into it. They use Word because they can have it running in 10 minutes. This, of course, assumes there is actually a war between Open and Closed Source software. Which is a wrong assumption. People use either one, or both, based on a lot of different factors. None of which are being applied in your own little Barbie world. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:26AM EST (#261) I strongly suspect the original poster is not in favor of the GPL, but is trying to FUD against it by pretenting to be a fanatic and stating things that aren't true. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @07:37PM EST (#459) And I have to question your motives. Carmack released the Quake 1 _FULL SOURCE_ for crying out loud! And instead of being incredibly grateful like your sorry self should, you say, "What, no maps? That's lame." The only lame thing here is _you_. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by Dwonis (dlitz[IBoycottSpam]@cheerful[spamsucks].com) on Wednesday December 22, @07:29AM EST (#325) (User Info) http://www.redrival.com/dlitz/ Have you ever considered that the engine and the maps are totally separate entities? They're not even made by the same people! And you're an idiot if you think Carmack is not for us. Just because he released *his* work under the GPL does not make him able to speak for the rest of the id guys.-------- "I already have all the latest software." -- Laura Winslow, "Family Matters" Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:4, Informative) by John Carmack on Tuesday December 21, @11:07PM EST (#164) (User Info) Nope. We are the copyright holder of all works, and we can release any part of it under any license we choose. Completely aside from that, I think it is still unclear exactly where the GPL wants the separation of code and content. Few would argue that every document read by a GPL word processor would be covered by the GPL, and most would place maps entered by quake into that catagory, but things can quickly get murky. Quake game mods are written in QC, but turned into data to be processed by the main code. I think the spirit of the GPL would want that code to be released, but it is only a small step from there to saying that every program loaded by a GPL operating system must be GPL, which is clearly not the case. John Carmack Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:09PM EST (#170) You cannot modify the GPL to suit your own tastes, you know. Not even Linus can do that. That's why he lost the GPL argument with Richard. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:15PM EST (#180) Actually, you can.Linus, for example, made an exception in the Linux kernel license to allow binary-only modules. Linus' GPL modification not valid (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:24PM EST (#192) Linus, for example, made an exception in the Linux kernel license to allow binary-only modules. No. Read the GPL. You cannot modify it. The only reason Richard doesn't rip Linus a new asshole about this is because Linus has more karma than Richard does. In other words, it would be bad publicity. Richard believes Linus is wrong here, and that Linus fails to understand or sufficiently respect the GPL. I was at a talk that Richard gave this year, and afterwards in the hall, this is what he said. Ask him. It's true. You're both stupid and wrong (Score:1) by Russ Nelson on Tuesday December 21, @11:34PM EST (#201) (User Info) http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson Linus isn't modifying the GPL. The GPL has always relied on copyright law. Copyright only affects derived works. If a kernel module doesn't include any GPL'ed kernel code, then it's not a derived work and is not subject to the GPL. Now, this is Linus's interpretation of the GPL. But given that he's copyright holder #1, it's likely that his interpretation would hold in any court case. So whether Linus is right or not is really a moot point. More to the point here, Linus isn't modifying the GPL, nor does he fail to understand or respect it. -russ Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:12AM EST (#223) In a word - BULLSHIT. I can take the GPL, add a clause that states you may only compile the code if you're standing on your head, facing North, with a banana shoved up your ass. Then release my code under this license, and as long as I state the license to be "modified GPL" or "Banana License" or "Green Fuzzy Choo-Choo License" it's legal. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by Sesse (remove.this.please.sgunderson@bigfoot.com) on Wednesday December 22, @06:45AM EST (#309) (User Info) http://members.xoom.com/sneeze/ At least that couldn't go seamlessly' into the GPL -- you'd have to clearly state somewhere your additional clauses (ie. don't hide them in the GPL clauses somewhere). The GPL states explicitly that "changing is not permitted" :-) So, you'd have to have a CHANGES.2 file or something./* Steinar */(This comment is of course GPLed.) modified GPL (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @06:55AM EST (#313) I can take the GPL, add a clause that states you may only compile the code if you're standing on your head, facing North, with a banana shoved up your ass. Then release my code under this license, and as long as I state the license to be "modified GPL" or "Banana License" or "Green Fuzzy Choo-Choo License" it's legal. No you can not. The copy of the GPL that I have is "Copyright (c)1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, U.S.A. Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed." Re:modified GPL (Score:2, Interesting) by Dwonis (dlitz[IBoycottSpam]@cheerful[spamsucks].com) on Wednesday December 22, @07:26AM EST (#323) (User Info) http://www.redrival.com/dlitz/ But you're not changing the GPL, just the terms of your license. Your actual software license is not the text of the GPL, but: Copyright (C) This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA This point is moot, however, because the quake map and pseudocode compiler (the Quake engine) and the data it works on (the precompiled quake-c and the maps) are separate entities. A Quote from the GPL: These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it. Thus, it is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your rights to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works based on the Program. In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License. -------- "I already have all the latest software." -- Laura Winslow, "Family Matters" Re:modified GPL (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:21AM EST (#344) If I had the last moderator point I used yesterday, you'd have it, for pointing out this rather important distinction. Somebody should've moderated this guys comment up! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:50PM EST (#429) No text. Re:modified GPL (Score:1) by SpaceCadet (Space_Cadet35@NO_HORMEL_PRODUCTS.hotmail.com) on Wednesday December 22, @07:34AM EST (#326) (User Info) Irrelevant. If I change the terms of the license, it's legal, so long as I don't claim it to be the GPL. So that copyright doesn't apply. If I, or our anonymous poster, rewrite the license to include extra clauses, and change the Copyright statement as well to name the license the "Green Fuzzy Choo-Choo" license, by someone other than the Free Software Foundation, then it is legal. How many modified versions of the GPL have we seen? Do you really think they're all illegal?-- Fecal matter will always hit the propulsive air turbine. It's a law of nature. Re:modified GPL (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:11AM EST (#337) No, you can't do this. It doesn't matter what you call it. The result of what your modifications would be a work derived from the GPL. The GPL is copyrighted. If you make a work derived from a copyrighted work, than its term apply. This is the meat and the muscle that the GPL uses to enforce its terms on others: copyright law and the notion of a derevid work. Either the GPL works, and what you are trying to do is illegal, or else the GPL does not work, and what you are trying to do is irrelevant. Re:modified GPL (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @10:45AM EST (#391) IANAL and I'm probably wrong, but i thought there were some restrictions on what you could copyright. One of the things I thought you couldn't copyright are legal contracts. Since the GPL is, in effect, a contract between the licensor and licensee, the GPL itself should not be copyrightable. ENOGPL (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @10:57AM EST (#398) i thought there were some restrictions on what you could copyright. One of the things I thought you couldn't copyright are legal contracts. Since the GPL is, in effect, a contract between the licensor and licensee, the GPL itself should not be copyrightable. Holy wildebeest poop, Batman, you're right! Re:modified GPL (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @10:11PM EST (#462) The GPL is copyrighted. Therefore, you can't necessarily modify the GPL itself. What says you have to? Why wouldn't it be perfectly legal to state that your code is distributed under the terms of the GPL, with the *exception* or addition that [your change here]? Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by Eccles (abell@mindspringdotcom) on Wednesday December 22, @08:36AM EST (#352) (User Info) I can take the GPL, add a clause[...] Actually, that would qualify as a "derivative work" under copyright law, and you could be prohibited from distributing your license. On the other hand, you could write "This code is licensed under the GPL, with the following exception: you may only compile the code if you're standing on your head, [yadda yadda yadda]" I also think the banana clause would be rather hard to enforce -- particularly given trade disputes over bananas -- so I think you would have to allow for any local fruit to be an acceptable substitute. thanks, John (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:39PM EST (#204) John Carmack, if you're reading this: Thanks. Re:thanks, John (Score:1) by slimharpo99 on Tuesday December 21, @11:50PM EST (#210) (User Info) Ditto!(And please ignore the many Slashdot hair-splittersand quibblers. These ijits, loud as they may be,in no way represent the great majority of Linuxusers who really appreciate gestures like yours.) Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by Saint Stephen on Wednesday December 22, @12:19AM EST (#226) (User Info) http://grateful.tzo.com Well, John: how's this grab you? I never owned a copy of Quake1 (just Q2 and Q3), so i've just compiled all the binaries but i don't have any of the wad's!. So now I'm gonna go to the $10 rack at CompUSA and pick up a copy. So, by releasing the source code, you just *sold* another copy of Quake 1........... [Saint Stephen] Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by m8919 (mikael.moreira@nospam.centrumntr.se) on Wednesday December 22, @08:14AM EST (#339) (User Info) http://bomben.nu No one is forcing you to compile quake. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by Grahf666 on Wednesday December 22, @02:45PM EST (#433) (User Info) I think you're misconstruing what he said. For on thing, why should buying quake, for 10 bucks no less, be a burden? It would probably be possible to get the .PAK files separately. I think... Thats Great But... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @02:50PM EST (#435) ...you can use the wads from the shareware version too... What about Linux? (Score:1) by Sesse (remove.this.please.sgunderson@bigfoot.com) on Wednesday December 22, @06:48AM EST (#310) (User Info) http://members.xoom.com/sneeze/ Are there any plans for making the Linux (squake and glquake) versions available as well?The main reason I've been waiting for the Q1 source code, is the ability to compile a glibc2/libc6 version of q1 :-)Oh, while we're at it, I'm struggling to make the Q3A-demo work with masq here... but I guess I'll sort it out :-)/* Steinar */(This comment is of course GPLed.) Re:What about Linux? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @06:20PM EST (#455) The same source package for Windows will compile under Linux. A linux makefile is included. Re: Q3A Demo and IP-Masq (Score:1) by julest on Thursday December 23, @02:59AM EST (#467) (User Info) http://www.netsitepro.co.uk Interestingly, I couldn't get it to work with IP Masquerading, either. Or rather, I could only connect one client through it, while subsequent ones failed to handshake (it appears the first client got all the handshake replies instead). The full version of the game appears not to suffer from it, however, so I'm happy again ;) - Jules Re: Q3A Demo and IP-Masq (Score:1) by Ateran (ateran6@hotmail.com) on Friday December 24, @01:34AM EST (#485) (User Info) http://www.ateran.com From Graeme Devine's .plan file: So far I've seen issues with the servers being able to see the auth server and clients using IP forwarding not having the correct setup on the IP forwarding server. If it's a Linux IP forwarding machine use something like: modprobe ip_masq_quake ports=26000,27000,27910,27960,27950,27951,27952 Modulating characters within a key sequence will not work. It appears to work because when you've validated your IP with an authentic CD key you've "leased" that IP address for a period of time. Even if you enter a junk string, that will work because your IP address is still valid. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by Andrew Cady (afcady at home.net) on Wednesday December 22, @08:39AM EST (#354) (User Info) The GPL goes as far as copyright law lets it go. Writing QuakeC is NOT a derivation of the source code to the internal QuakeC compiler. (Imagine that, because GCC is GPLd, all C code must be GPL'd too). The GPL doesn't place any restrictions on use either, so it wouldn't disallow using GCC to compile commercial proprietary programs. If the original QuakeC source was released under the GPL, all derivations of that would have to be GPL'd. But the original QuakeC code was released under a non-copyleft license (either non-profit use or Xfree-style, probably). You can't just take that back by releasing it again under another license. That would be like me taking a Xfree, which allows me to release it myself under new licenses, and release it under the GPL, and then try to stop other people from using Xfree in proprietary programs. Makes even less sense than real copyright law.Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song? Thank you (Score:1) by Kierkan on Wednesday December 22, @08:56AM EST (#360) (User Info) Nothing else to say... Re:Thank you - for killing off QW community (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @11:10AM EST (#400) Yes, thank you very much. We did have our problems, we wanted solutions. Now we don't have to worry about aimbots anymore: anyone can do ANYTHING with their client now. Thanks for ruining the only well working online game totally and permanently. I hated Q2 a lot, and Q3 almost as much, mario bros on the run. Well, kids should love it. And you probably managed to force QW people to move to UT or Q3. Thanks, and merry Christmas and let's hope world ends 1.1.2000 so I won't have to put up with any more Q3 crap. Re:Thank you - for killing off QW community (Score:1) by MagicMike on Wednesday December 22, @12:33PM EST (#413) (User Info) http://www.mikehardy.net You know, now that you have the source, maybe you could come up with a really good remote-client verification system? Something secure, etc, that let you run a server that only worked with a distribution of the client you prepared. There's probably a way to do it, so if you want it so badly that you'd like the world to end you probably wouldn't mind spending a couple of months figuring it out. If the system was good enough, you might even be able to convince id to use it in the future so you have your precious gaming purity back. Thanks ID, Secure QW - now possible (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:32PM EST (#425) Actually I've seen project which is about just that: to make QW more secure and add lot more cheat protections. May be next year, we'll have a new "standard-a-like" QW, and team which will keep it updated. It might be quite hard thing to do, since GPL requires that if you make modifications and distribute binaries, you have to make source code availabe. And making client and server networking protocol secure when everyone has access to source sure presents huge challenge... (actually in QW 2.30, when it came out, protection took only about an hour to debug and crack, after that, magic bytes and whole protection was useless, so giving away source code isn't that big deal :-) Quakeworld community has been dying off slowly anyway, since there are lot of aimbots, speed cheats, hacked .mdls... Re:Thanks ID, Secure QW - now possible (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @07:34AM EST (#470) And making client and server networking protocol secure when everyone has access to source sure presents huge challenge... On the contrary, this will make it more secure. Protocols available to peer review undergo a lot more scrutinisation. Weaker ones tend to be exposed quickly, and stronger ones made stronger. "Security through obscurity," has never been a good practice. Re:Thank you - for killing off QW community (Score:1) by Tekai on Wednesday December 22, @12:46PM EST (#416) (User Info) http://tekai.home.pages.de/ u idiot! I´m a qw and i´m pretty happy about it! It still take a lot of coding knowledge to create cheats and via proxys u were able to cheat a lot already so this aint new! I am sure that some clever coders will find a way to make a better cheat protection maybe via a external proggie, next time don´t give it such a short thought, i´m sure this helping the qw scene more than it damages it! Show some respect (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @11:19AM EST (#402) SHow some respect to John Carmack, you ungrateful twat! If it wasn't for him, you would have never had your QuakeWorld to begin with. Re:Show some respect (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @07:44PM EST (#482) And he wouldnt have my$50 that I paid him - so can I have my $50 back now ? To John Carmack: (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @04:31PM EST (#443) How about this idea? All the game code is GPL'd upon release, but the data/content - the levels, music, models, etc., are not. So you release a version of (say) Quake 4 in precompiled and source code format, and then sell the game for the content. I mean sure, people can make their own content if they have your code, but how they gonna play online if they don't buy the standard content? Of course some people will just make their own stuff and have nonstandard deathmatches on their own private servers, so that's a risk, too. Does that sound too revolutionary a move? :) Re:To John Carmack: (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @12:43AM EST (#464) Checkout Abuse, they did this. -- Eric Windisch windisch@nni.com please cc me any replies to this message.. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:2) by roystgnr (roystgnr@iname.com) on Wednesday December 22, @04:41PM EST (#444) (User Info) Quake game mods are written in QC, but turned into data to be processed by the main code. I think the spirit of the GPL would want that code to be released, but it is only a small step from there to saying that every program loaded by a GPL operating system must be GPL, which is clearly not the case. No, Quake game mods are not required to be under the GPL, at least not if my understanding of the way they work is correct. It's either an interpreter or a JIT compiler, correct? Well, just because an interpreter (like bash) is under the GPL doesn't mean that all the scripts it interprets have to be under the same license. Just because the GCC compiler suite is GPL'ed doesn't mean that the code you compile with it has to be. The GPL does apply to both statically and dynamically linked binaries, however, so Quake 2 game modifications would have to be GPL'ed if Quake 2 itself was released under only the GPL. If you released Quake 2 in the future under the LGPL then binary-only modules would be fine. The Quake 2 case is interesting, though, since it's already released under a license that (if not explicitly, than by years of practice) allows binary-only DLLs to be released; and rereleasing it under the GPL wouldn't take away that right for people who purchased the original license. So would people who *hadn't* purchased the original game be allowed to write binary-only modules for a GPL'ed Quake 2? I haven't a clue. Ask RMS. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by engin_matt on Wednesday December 22, @05:16PM EST (#447) (User Info) http://users.penn.com/~snydermt/index.html What about the companies that lease the quake1 engine? This is what is now GPL, isn't it? If someone modifies the q1 engine and makes original content for their game, would they still have to lease the engine from ID? There are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask questions. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @01:23PM EST (#474) There stuff is not gpl'd because they had before it was GPL'd lotsa programs have no real license then change to another license in further versions. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 24, @01:00PM EST (#490) Two words: Intellectual property. Re:Level maps are *NOT* GPL'd (Score:1) by Russ Nelson on Tuesday December 21, @11:27PM EST (#195) (User Info) http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson Are the level maps required to build a quake executable? No? Then they're not covered by the GPL. -russ Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:36AM EST (#233) You're completely wrong. If I'm the original copyright holder, I don't have to release anything I write regardless of what GPL says. You only need to release in GPL any work derived from a work you obtained through GPL. Since ID clearly did not obtain any of their own source code through GPL, this clause doesn't apply. This is both legally clear and common sense. Re:Level maps *are* GPL'd (Score:1) by juhtolv on Wednesday December 22, @12:17PM EST (#412) (User Info) http://www.jyu.fi/~juhtolv/ According to readme.txt that comes w/ those sources: All of the Quake data files remain copyrighted and licensed under the original terms, so you cannot redistribute data from the original game, but if you do a true total conversion, you can create a standalone game based on this code. I will see about having the license changed on the shareware episode of quake to allow it to be duplicated more freely (for linux distributions, for example), but I can't give a timeframe for it. You can still download one of the original quake demos and use that data with the code, but there are restrictions on the redistribution of the demo data. BTW when I tried to see http://www.fsf.org/, this happened: ERROR The requested URL could not be retrieved While trying to retrieve the URL: http://www.fsf.org/ The following error was encountered: Read Timeout The system returned: [No Error] A Timeout occurred while waiting to read data from the network. The network or server may be down or congested. Please retry your request. It seems that RMS and Co. has downloaded that source code and some free total conversion, compiled them and started playing with in FSF's server. :-) Juhapekka Tolvanen - http://www.jyu.fi/~juhtolv/ Re:You know what this means... (Score:1) by LRJ on Tuesday December 21, @11:04PM EST (#159) (User Info) http://www.pcguys.com Couldn't you just include the pak file from the shareware version of Quake1? The shareware license gives you the ability to distribute everything in it as long as it all stays together. You may not have all the levels (and new levels can always be made) but you would have most of the textures and models. Re:You know what this means... (Score:1) by CaptainCarrot (carrot@watch.ankh-morpork.gov) on Tuesday December 21, @09:32PM EST (#36) (User Info) I'd be happier if they'd GPL their level maps, too. They're not really giving away the store... Re:You know what this means... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:33PM EST (#115) I'd be happier if they'd GPL their level maps, too. They're not really giving away the store... Too late. The horses are out. They didn't LGPL the game. The GPL applies. WHERE ARE OUR LEVELS? Re:You know what this means... (Score:3, Informative) by spinkham on Tuesday December 21, @10:56PM EST (#146) (User Info) 1st, the GPL applies to Code. The levels are data files, and not code. Saying ID must open source them is like saying anyone who open sources a text editor has to give you all their text files. 2nd, id software is the copyright holder, and is free to give away or not give away whatever they want. They can license their property under any license they want. They couldn't link their GPL'd code with non-GPL'd code (but we already established all their code is already GPL'd) but they could issue another version under another license, as long as it is all their copyright. In this version, no GPL'd code at all could be used, however. Re:You know what this means... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:00PM EST (#153) Your analogy is flawed. It is not like a GPL editor and a bunch of text files. It's like a GPL'd compiler and the per-chip data tables that drive code generator. Those tables are essential to the compiler; without them, you do not have a complete application. Therefore, they are free, also. It's the same case as here. Ask Richard. Freedom shall overcome. Re:You know what this means... (Score:1) by spinkham on Tuesday December 21, @11:08PM EST (#168) (User Info) Ok, maybe that wasn't the best example.. /'text editor'/less less requires text files to work, therefore since less is GPL'd, all of the author's text files are GPL'd. The above is the same situation as the quake situation, as running less without text files only gives you errors. You are free to create your own text files or maps for less or quake1 respectively. Also, none of this changes the fact that id is the copyright holder, and can release portions of source to whomever under whatever license they choose.. What is WRONG with you people? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:09PM EST (#169) Come on now! This is a GIFT. Don't go around saying "you have to give us more". That's BS, and will discourage them from giving more. Say "Thank you". Id doesn't have to give us the level files as GPL if they don't want to, and I, for one, think we ought to respect that. Re:What is WRONG with you people? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:18PM EST (#185) A GPL'd gift comes with very important conditions. Don't forget that. Re:What is WRONG with you people? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:16AM EST (#254) > A GPL'd gift comes with very important conditions. Don't forget that. Yes, but the conditions apply to the receiver not the giver!! (Copyright law 101) Re:What is WRONG with you people? (Score:1) by Ares (ares0-AT-geocities-DOT-com) on Wednesday December 22, @08:43AM EST (#357) (User Info) http://www.tc.umn.edu/~mich0101 Yeah, especially the condition that its not warranted to work in any particular way (read: Quake I GPL is not guaranteed to be playable). There's no reason to not be able to download the shareware version and use its WADs, as a previous poster had said. Re:You know what this means... (Score:1) by *borktheork* on Tuesday December 21, @11:10PM EST (#172) (User Info) No, the analogy is not flawed. The level maps are *not* essential to the game. The game-engine, anyway. 'Quake the Game' is something there are many opinions about. I bet lots of Quake I fanatics played custom levels for *much* longer than the included ones. Anyway, there are thousands of levels available. Even if they don't give away the level maps *WHO CARES?* Make your own or use the maps other people have made publicly available. This whining sounds like you've been given a recipe by someone and subsequently become angry because they don't give you a cake to go with it. And another thing. Have you actually thought about who you're saying this about? id software. The people who just keep on giving us cool stuff. Opening old sources, opening the interface to current games so people can do their own cool stuff with it. People who are very much behind the whole Free Software thing and also invest time and money in it. Nevermind, enough from me.. *borkborkbork* A new god for a new millenium (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:17PM EST (#182) There is no license but the GPL, and Richard is its prophet. You shall have no licenses before it. Nor afterwards. :-) Re:A new god for a new millenium (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @07:06AM EST (#318) Richard Built My Hotrod LOL (n/t) (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:00AM EST (#333) . Viral by Intent, not Accident (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:20PM EST (#188) Have you actually thought about who you're saying this about? The GPL doesn't care, and neither does Richard. If they hadn't wanted a viral license, they should have chosen the LGPL or something. Re:Viral by Intent, not Accident (Score:1) by *borktheork* on Tuesday December 21, @11:30PM EST (#198) (User Info) The GPL doesn't care, and neither does Richard. If they hadn't wanted a viral license, they should have chosen the LGPL or something. I think you'de better read the GPL again. And this time have a dictionary handy. You've abviously completely misunderstood the viral qualities of the GPL. *borkborkbork* Re:Viral by Intent, not Accident (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:39AM EST (#236) If you don't understand GPL, you perhaps ought to keep your mouth shut and do the rest of us a favor. Re:You know what this means... (Score:1) by Zico (ZicoKnows@hotmail.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:09PM EST (#100) (User Info) Plus the opportunity to see just how many ways Id invaded the privacy of their loyal Quake customers, other than the ways which have already been discovered. Well, provided that they didn't rip those sections of code out before releasing it. Not that I meant to make you paranoid or anything. ;-) Cheers,ZicoKnows@hotmail.com What is up with this "security" stuff on Quake? (Score:1) by Mr. Flibble (Chumkil@SPAM!hotmail.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:46PM EST (#135) (User Info) I for one think that John Carmack is a good guy. So are the rest of the people at id. If you are reffering to the Message of the day that appeared in Q3A - It was documented true, it did not appear in the documentation in one of the releases, and this was due to an oversight. John gratefully posted his error here on slashdot. It was a mistake. It was id's intent that the message of the day be documented. This is why it was documented when it was first released. With the next release it did not make it into the documentation. Just an oversight, no need to be paranoid. I mean, jeez, are we going to come down on Torvalds or Cox now if there is a BUG in their code? Sure their stuff is open sourced, and from what we can see here, id's is too (after some time of being closed). So there was a mistake. Yippe. It was both a miscommunication from id (on the documentaion) and ourselves, for not paying attention to the (I believe) 1.08 readme. So can we please get over this "id is out to root us all! They are TR0j4|\| |-|4X0rz!!!" crap. "...That would be bad... anything that made it so that when people buy Windows they don't know what is in it." Bill Gates on open source Re:You know what this means... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @04:13AM EST (#292) Zico why don't you go back to doing what you love. Taunting the Mac people with your microsoftian ways in comp.sys.mac.advocacy god I hate an asskisser that has one helluva chip on his shoulder. Re:You know what this means... (Score:1, Troll) by slimharpo99 on Tuesday December 21, @11:41PM EST (#205) (User Info) It's unbelievable how so many Slashdot readersare bitter, dried-up, prissy, worthless, pricks.Carmack gives you something cool, and your firstimpulse is to spit on him? Yesterday you didn'thave quake, today you do. If you don't want it,then go on your way, and shut the fuck up, asswipe.It's certainly not ID's fault that you are incapableof seeing anything in all but the most negative of lights. Re:You know what this means... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:52PM EST (#211) It's unbelievable how so many Slashdot readers are bitter, dried-up, prissy, worthless, pricks. Like, no duh. It took you this long to realize? Re:You know what this means... (Score:1) by Synic (synic@linuxfreak.com) on Wednesday December 22, @06:52AM EST (#311) (User Info) http://www.lanparty.com Welcome to planet earth. It's not just slashdot you're describing.... Re:You know what this means... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:04AM EST (#336) True. From what I got reading the article, this is Quake the CODE v.s. Quake the GAME. Big difference there. It looks like this is going to be a great thing, and we'll probably see a lot of other cool games released because of it. The whingers out there probably already have their very own copy of Quake, the gold edition (read kodak CDR), so I don't understand why the fuss. releasing source code isn't always a GOOD THING (Score:1) by jlehrbaum on Wednesday December 22, @12:28AM EST (#232) (User Info) http://linuxdevices.com know why seti@home and distributed.net don't release their source code? It is because the chance of people hacking the code and wrecking the system outway the benefits of letting people have access to the code. If people had the source code to a game currently played such as Q3, they could hack server source and allow hacked clients to connect. you would never know whether the server is legit or hacked. This could allow any number of cheats such as hacked maps, increased health, free powerups, etc. Lots of people LOVE to cheat at quake, and this would increase their ability to do so. The same issues hold true with the Q1 sourcecode, but at least the amount of people still playing that is lower, but do not fool yourself, there are still many people playing quake1, and this will adversely affect them. so like chill n' stuff ;) Jacob Lehrbaum jacob@linuxdevices.com Re:releasing source code isn't always a GOOD THING (Score:2, Interesting) by spinkham on Wednesday December 22, @12:41AM EST (#237) (User Info) Here's my question/solution from another post I made: OK, now that the whole source code is released, I can forsee quite a few more bot problems. Would it be a good idea to implement another master server list that uses the "blessed binaries" system much like netrek does? For those not familiar, anyone can get source and mess with their own code, but to play on most servers, you must use one of the binaries that are certified to be cheat free and contain an encrypted key. There would have to be a team that would spend time checking modified code for cheats.. Is this worthwhile, or should I get used to playing with more bot-enhanced lamerz? Re:releasing source code isn't always a GOOD THING (Score:1) by mcrandello (mcrandello@my-deja.com) on Wednesday December 22, @08:11AM EST (#338) (User Info) http://www.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=mcrandello Most of the (cheat)bots that are out there operate as a proxy on hte clients machine. The client connects to the bot, the bot connects to the server. Most initial releases have a spoiler (e.g. ratbot, if you message trhe word ratbot it says :please help me, what is a bot?). The real problem is the bots are often open source themselves in a manner of speaking, someone get ahold of the source, fixes the spoiler, and whammo, undetectable bot. The only thing I couls see blessed binaries doing for the server is being another thorn in the side of mod authors. mcrandello@my-deja.com rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important. One commercial issue that needs addressing. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @08:20PM EST (#483) Let's say I make a game with a modified quake engine. I wish to sell this game. I must make the source freely available. But I can still sell the maps. But say I don't want my data getting ripped. If I put it in a .pak file, it can be ripped, modified, and exploited. I could try and sue, but it would be difficult to prove anything... So I encrypt the file, and put decryption code into the engine. Problem is, anyone can grab the source, get the decryption code, and decrypt the file! Even if the decryptor was an external library, it would still be trivial to make a version which incercepted the data before it got to the screen and after the decryption. Thanks! (Score:1) by raskolnik (raskolnik@ihateclowns.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:17PM EST (#3) (User Info) This is sweet. I'm just starting to get the whole "programming" thing into gear, and id gives me everything I need! Thanks tons for the early Christmas gift, Id! "You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth." -Henrik Ibsen Re:Thanks! (Score:2) by Foogle (foogle@adelphia.net) on Tuesday December 21, @09:27PM EST (#25) (User Info) Man, if you're *just* getting into programming, Quake's source code is probably a little in the deep end. You might try something a little simpler... like "Hello World". Just kidding, but seriously, Quake's source code is not going to be something you can just jump into.----------- "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding." - They Might Be Giants Beginning Game Programming (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:41PM EST (#53) If you're just getting into game programming, grab a copy of Andre LaMothe's "Windows Game Programming for Dummies", a truly excellent book. Re:Beginning Game Programming (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:22PM EST (#108) for me to poop on!! Re:Beginning Game Programming (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:07PM EST (#162) Get Adrian Perez's upcoming book. Having met the dude, he is one sharp cookie, especially for an undergrad. LaMothe's books (and articles) never impressed me very much. Check on his progress at www.cubonics.com incidentally, he needs someone to port the win32/Direct3D examples to linux/opengl. Anyone with some spare time and experience with both 3D APIs, this would be very worthwhile. His book, while it will never replace references like CG: P&P, it will most likely become THE tutorial style book on game programming. Re:Thanks! (Score:1) by raskolnik (raskolnik@ihateclowns.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:42PM EST (#55) (User Info) yeas, well, i'm obviously not gonna jump right into it. But it gives me somewhere to go after i mess around with wolf and doom :) "You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth." -Henrik Ibsen Re:Thanks! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:02PM EST (#156) Don't listen to these fools. If your standards are low, you will never get anywhere. Grab the code, and grep away... you may get a headache, but you will learn a ton. --ac Um... (Score:2) by Millennium (rbg6038@spamspameggsbaconandspam.rit.edu) on Tuesday December 21, @09:42PM EST (#54) (User Info) If you're just starting to get the whole "programming" thing into gear, then the Quake engine is not the place to start. Don't get me wrong, the Quake engine being GPL'd is a great thing, and I applaud Id for it. However, 3D-engines are not a good thing to cut your teeth on. Start small. Code a few 2-D games first (my guess is that you're into game programming). Tetris clones and platformers are always popular (heck, my first game was a taste-challenged Barney-killing simulator back in my high schools Pascal class). Then move on to grander things. You can't build a tool shed in the backyard and then move on to a castle right away. It's the same with coding.-Millennium You know what would be neat? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:45AM EST (#265) If you're just starting to get the whole 'programming' thing into gear, then the Quake engine is not the place to start. I'd dearly love to see the Q1 source code laid out in book form; heavily annotated along with a few paranthetical examples of key concepts tossed in for good measure (somewhat taking Scott Maxwell's approach in his "Linux Core Kernel Commentary"). Granted, one would still need a solid groundling in basic coding and gaming concepts, but there are already books covering these. What is sorely missing on the bookshelf is a solid, pragmatic and (dare I say it) fun book aimed that the intermediate/advanced level. Re:You know what would be neat? (Score:1) by Sibelius on Wednesday December 22, @03:12PM EST (#437) (User Info) This is a hella cool idea. In comparison to my droning comp sci textbooks (read: depressants), understanding the plumbing of a still impressive 3D engine - thereby learning efficiency in coding and design - is a very intriguing idea. Hey John C., pitch this to the biz guys: we can make a book about this, books make money. Id has made all the difference for me. (Score:1) by Analogue Kid on Tuesday December 21, @09:49PM EST (#67) (User Info) http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~wilburmb Actually, if it weren't for Id, I probably wouldn't be a game programmer at all. I've always had several programming geek buddies, and thought that games were cool. However all I ever worked on before Id released Doom's source, was lame space invaders clones. I've gotta say that Doom was a great thing to cut my teeth on. If you haven't already, you might want to look at that before you dive into Quake. Currently I'm toying with the idea of rewriting the graphics code for Decent II, which was also recently released (albeit, not GPL). Unfortunately, only having experience with Id stuff, I don't know much Direct3D. Do any of you know of a good online reference? Some men look at what is and ask, "why?" ... I dream of things that never were and ask, "why not?" Re:Id has made all the difference for me. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:10PM EST (#171) You're better off ripping out the D3D code and rewriting it for OpenGL. Learning D3D is a waste of time, and will leave you a worse programmer. D3D is so incomprehensibly bad, it will actually reduce your IQ. And if you think its bad now, you should have seen it back when they were using Execute Buffers, before it became a lame bastardized ripoff of opengl. Hack us a GlibC Quake! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @06:57AM EST (#314) Here's your first mission - create a GlibC 2.1 version of Quake. Bet you can't do it before Xmas! Prove me wrong! Re:Hack us a GlibC Quake! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @05:08PM EST (#446) GlibC(2.0) quake here you go: http://www.sudac.org/~napolium/other/quake_glibc/ at own risk! :) Re:Hack us a GlibC Quake! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @03:39AM EST (#468) No GL version? I wanna try Quake on my Voodoo3! Re:Hack us a GlibC Quake! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @04:05AM EST (#469) I don´t have a 3DFX card! :) Rock ON (Score:1) by sPaKr on Tuesday December 21, @09:17PM EST (#4) (User Info) I think Ill buy a copy of QuakeIII just cause they opened up Quake1. Good of ID to see that they arent going to make any real money from selling quake1 and the best thing to do was to open it and make the world a better place. I wonder what new games will come from the engine. Re:Rock ON (Score:1, Insightful) by gatzke (gatzke at udel dot edu) on Tuesday December 21, @09:26PM EST (#21) (User Info) http://udel.edu/~gatzke I was thinking the same thing! I have bough a few ID products, but now I feel like I need to get more. What does Q2/Q3 have that Q1 doesn't? Q1 was real 3D and had GL support- Quakeworld had decent network support for online gaming. There are a ton of mods and tournament play games out there. Plus, being GPL, RedHat (Debian, etc...) can drop it in their distros... Ed included in distros (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:32PM EST (#33) that actually brings up an interesting question...did they GPL the entire game including the pak files or just the engine? if the pak files are still non-free, how would people go about including the game in a distro? --Siva Re:included in distros (Score:2) by Wah (t h e w a h @ uswest . net) on Tuesday December 21, @09:36PM EST (#44) (User Info) http://wahcentral.net include any of the many TCs (and the ones to follow, id kicks ass) This code was worth, what,$10 million 4 years ago? An interesting point in the discussion of determining the "value" of software. information wants to be free, and, yes, that does include all your personal info. Re:included in distros (Score:1) by seaportcasino on Tuesday December 21, @10:19PM EST (#106) (User Info) http://www.GreatWorldCasino.com This code was worth, what, $10 million 4 years ago? But now this code is priceless. And it is no longer stagnant; It may grow into what? The greatest game engine of all in the end, just as Linux grew from something simple to something incredible.****** Play a few hands of blackjack over at www.GreatWorldCasino.com and let me know what you think of my Java Servlets! ****** Re:included in distros (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:39PM EST (#123) did they GPL the entire game including the pak files or just the engine? if the pak files are still non-free, how would people go about including the game in a distro? They screwed up -- they used the GPL instead of the LGPL. As you point out, it's completely obvious that without the pak files, the games is useless. If they pretend that that's all you get, they lose big. It's just like the Microsoft contempt issue, back when that judge made them release Win95 sans MSIE, so they put out something that didn't work and got their asses righteously whupped for it. This is the same issue. Read what Richard says about "partial/non-functional GPL distributions". He says they're a sleight-of-hand trick that don't stand up to the test. You can't do a user-does-the-link. The GPL pierces that veil. This is exactly the same thing as user-does-the-link. Half free isn't good enough. It's ours -- all ours! NO (was Re:included in distros) (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:05PM EST (#160) The GPL does not apply to the original creator (as long as he doesn't try to link it with other GPL code that was not also created by him). Furthermore, the way the GPL works in cases where something is combined with non-GPL code is that if you can't distribute so as to fit both the GPL and the license of the other code, you can't distribute it at all. So assuming that this interpretation is correct, that doesn't mean that the level files are under the GPL; it means that since non-GPLed level files are required you're not allowed to distribute it at all. And it applies only to you, not to ID, who as the original creator is not required to abide by any restrictions they put on their own code, and who can thus still distribute it. Illegal distributions (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:07PM EST (#165) So what you're saying is that they're already in violation of the license and are distributing it illegally. That sucks. Re:Illegal distributions (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @02:49AM EST (#276) No, what he is saying is that anyone other than ID wouldn't be able to distribute it. If the claim that the files explicitly excepted from the GPL would have to be covered is true, which I doubt. Remember that the files that ID owns (and reserves) are not necessary to use the game because you can use data files created by other people in their place. Re:included in distros (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:11PM EST (#173) Yeah, keep trolling, idiot. Anyone who even for a second believed this troll should go read the GPL. Re:Rock ON (Score:2, Insightful) by Corrinne Yu (corrinney@3drealms.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:18PM EST (#105) (User Info) http://www.3drealms.com Kudos for id and Carmack for setting an example of Open Sourcing game and engine source. Because of this example, we also have source from many other developers. A fine Open HW and SW engine from Genesis : http://www.wildtangent.com/genesis/download.php3 Outrage and Toschlog also opened their Desecent 2 source : http://descent2.com/ddn/sources/descent2/legal.html Do support Outrage and Descent 3. It is a fine product. Corrinne Yu 3D Game Engine Programmer 3D Realms/Apogee Corrinne Yu 3D Game Engine Programmer 3D Realms/Apogee Genesis3D (Score:1) by Miskatonic on Wednesday December 22, @01:09AM EST (#250) (User Info) http://lovecraft.net/ FWIW, the Genesis3D SDK is in violation of the Open Source definition. While it does indeed make its source code available, the licensing terms are fairly restrictive, so it is not free software. A much cooler project is Crystal Space, the LGPL'd cross-platform multi-API 3D game engine. It's nowhere nearly as complete as Genesis, but shows a lot of promise. I suspect today's announcement will be a boon to CS, since any of the code in Quake can now go into CS. Re:Rock ON (Score:1) by Cebert (h a c 4 7 @ i g n m a i l . c o m) on Wednesday December 22, @03:16AM EST (#280) (User Info) http://bleh.n3.net Soooo....where's the source to Build? ;)-- A pure waste of time: bleh.n3.net Re:Rock ON (Score:1) by Corrinne Yu (corrinney@3drealms.com) on Wednesday December 22, @09:42AM EST (#374) (User Info) http://www.3drealms.com The 3D Realms biz guys have the final official word on this. This particular programmer who is not representing 3D Realms on this matter at this moment is informally saying : We'd be lucky if we knew where it all went by this point! I couldn't find it! Once we find all of it, we will see. P.S. Don't get me in trouble by reporting this as fact or news. Corrinne Yu 3D Game Engine Programmer 3D Realms/Apogee Re:Rock ON (Score:1) by Cebert (h a c 4 7 @ i g n m a i l . c o m) on Wednesday December 22, @12:55PM EST (#420) (User Info) http://bleh.n3.net Understood. I fear source lost to the sands of time. Kinda tragic. Nice to know even decades from now, we'll still have code for Quake, Descent1/2, Wolf3D, etc. (however antiquated by then). :) I've spent all night and morning curled up around the Quake source...I'm about to pass out. Oof. :o Thanks for asking about it. I emailed Joe Siegler about it a couple months ago, but I think it got lost somewhere along the way. ;)-- A pure waste of time: bleh.n3.net Re:Rock ON (Score:1) by Shadowlion (shadowlion@netscape.net) on Wednesday December 22, @08:17AM EST (#341) (User Info) Correction. id and Carmack did NOT have any influence over the decision to open the source for Descent II. In fact, Descent II is largely Descent I with a few additions/changes and different maps, and the Descent I source code has been available for at least two years. When it was released, Parallax/Interplay stated that they would try to continue releasing the source for their games once the game was no longer viable as a serious product. The release of Descent II source is another step along that road, I expect that in a few years, when Descent III is no longer at the top of the heap and Descent IV has replaced it, Outrage will release the Descent III code. -- "We can't send him back there. They fry bananas, for God's sake." - Wesley Pierce Re:Rock ON (Score:1) by Corrinne Yu (corrinney@3drealms.com) on Wednesday December 22, @09:37AM EST (#370) (User Info) http://www.3drealms.com id did not have any influence over the decision to open Descent either. That is motivated by Toschlog and Kulas's attempt to publicly put in as many swear words in code as possible. :) (Sorry, Matt.) I know Toschlog a lot longer than I have known Carmack, and I know Toschlog has been devoted to both the cause of free exchange of knowledge, as well as 3D graphics, way before Doom, et al. Despite popular belief/publicity spin, Descent was never developed to be Doom killer. It was their idea to do an "inside flying game." It was many people like Toschlog and Chris Green who believe in free exchange of information, willing to talk to punks like me, that allow a lot of us to be able to do what we do nowadays. This is going off topic. I want to clarify that neither Genesis3D nor Toschlog/Kulas was "controlled" by id and Carmack to release their source. I am merely saying it is nice influential developers like them set good examples, and precedence, for more open source of older commercial products. Hey, Matt, you should come in here and talk about this yourself! (And thanks for explaining BSP schemes to me ages ago. Matt open source his brain too!) Corrinne Yu 3D Game Engine Programmer 3D Realms/Apogee Corrinne Yu 3D Game Engine Programmer 3D Realms/Apogee too bad they chose GPL (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:54AM EST (#268) It's a shame they didn't use a more moral license, like MPL. Re:too bad they chose GPL (Score:1) by Lonesmurf (lonesmurf@HAHA.altecmm.com) on Wednesday December 22, @06:05AM EST (#304) (User Info) http://w3.to/rjames/ I don't seem to understand what problem people have with the GPL. I'm not trying to start some holy war here or open any wounds, I'm just curios about a couple of things: 1) What is so terribly wrong with the GPL? 2) What is the MPL? 3) What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? 4) What is 'immoral' about the GPL?(that just cracks me up, has it been molesting little children and puppies again?? Bad GPL! Down GPL!) -- "I want somebody that's not afraid of me, and I want somebody that's not afraid of anyone else; in other words, I want somebody that's not afraid of themselves. Re:too bad they chose GPL (Score:1) by Ded Bob on Wednesday December 22, @12:12PM EST (#410) (User Info) 1) What is so terribly wrong with the GPL? a) Quite a long license. :) b) Doesn't share well with anyone but GPL. c) Zealots (I know everyone has these, but I see more GPL zealots than even Windows) d) More as an answer to number 4. 2) What is the MPL? Mozilla Public License 3) What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? I can't compare the GPL and MPL since I have not read the MPL. I prefer the BSD license over the GPL. 4) What is 'immoral' about the GPL?(that just cracks me up, has it been molesting little children and puppies again?? Bad GPL! Down GPL!) GPL is called the viral license or the hoarding license. Any software development based off of GPL code must be GPL'd. It makes all source it touches GPL'd. This feature is not bad in itself. What is morally bad is claiming that one is sharing the code with everyone by putting code under the GPL license. Unfortunately, this "sharing" is only within the GNU community. One of the main reasons for the formation of the FSF (Free Software Foundation) was due to the proprietarization of UNIX. I now see that it is happening again with the GPL. I can view GPL code, but I am unable to freely use it in any other licensed code (i.e., BSD). To me, this looks and acts a lot like proprietary code, but it is claimed to be "free". One last thought: the U.S. Government is always asking us to give up our rights to better protect us. The GPL is similar, but not exactly, to this. Do you want freedom or "freedom"? Here is a good license to consider for truly sharing code with others: Freedom. P.S. I used to be a big fan of the GPL until I really saw the truth behind it. Re:too bad they chose GPL (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @05:21PM EST (#448) > I can't compare the GPL and MPL since I have not read the MPL. I prefer the BSD license over the GPL. The MPL is simliar to the LGPL, it requires redistribution of source code of the 'original component' (as defined in terms of files and lines of changes), but also allows combining (linking) with code under other licenses. > Any software development based off of GPL code must be GPL'd. No, the GPL terms apply only when you distribute GPLed code. You can do whatever the hell you want with it otherwise, or at home. You can use gcc to compile Windows if you want. You can use cvs to manage a non GPL source base. Also keep in mind that you can use GPLed code as a basis for development in more than one way. For instance you can use Linux as a kernel in a proprietary system; you will have to distribute the code to the kernel but not to your software. You can write non GPL-ed front ends to GPL software. > Unfortunately, this "sharing" is only within the GNU community. It's still sharing, unlike the way most software out there is licensed. > I can view GPL code, but I am unable to freely use it in any other licensed code (i.e., BSD). The GPL is mainly concerned with freedom of use. Most users do not care about adding other code to the programs they use and then sending copies to other people. And of course you can use GPL code with BSD licensed code (providing it does not have the 'advertising clause'), the end result will just be under the GPL. > One last thought: the U.S. Government is always asking us to give up our rights to better protect us. What rights are you giving up? Do you think you have the inherent 'right' to use other people's code in any way you choose? If so, I suggest you stop thinking about the GPL, and set yourself to the task of getting copyright law overturned. > Here is a good license to consider for truly sharing code with others: Freedom. Don't forget that FreeBSD includes stuff like Soft Updates and Vinum, which is under licenses as strict or more strict than the GPL. (forbidding commercial use or giving out binaries without source code). They obviously feel that it's better to give up a little bit of freedom sometimes for a few extra features :) Re:too bad they chose GPL (Score:1) by Ded Bob on Wednesday December 22, @06:00PM EST (#454) (User Info) No, the GPL terms apply only when you distribute GPLed code. You can do whatever the hell you want with it otherwise, or at home. You can use gcc to compile Windows if you want. You can use cvs to manage a non GPL source base. Also keep in mind that you can use GPLed code as a basis for development in more than one way. For instance you can use Linux as a kernel in a proprietary system; you will have to distribute the code to the kernel but not to your software. You can write non GPL-ed front ends to GPL software I realize all of this. I was speaking of actually writing code which includes GPL code. It's still sharing, unlike the way most software out there is licensed. Sharing specific to a group sounds more like hoarding. It rings of being proprietary which the FSF is against. This is almost hypocritical. The GPL is mainly concerned with freedom of use. No. It is not. That would be free beer which is why you hear RMS always saying, "think free speech, not free beer." Most users do not care about adding other code to the programs they use and then sending copies to other people. And of course you can use GPL code with BSD licensed code (providing it does not have the 'advertising clause'), the end result will just be under the GPL. Which is why the GPL is always being pointed out to be viral in nature. What rights are you giving up? Do you think you have the inherent 'right' to use other people's code in any way you choose? If so, I suggest you stop thinking about the GPL, and set yourself to the task of getting copyright law overturned. Are you arguing for me or against me? The GPL's intent is to give people the 'freedom' to use code under the GPL, but they have to submit to the GPL for this benefit. Also, if I recall correctly, RMS would like to see copyright law overturned. Don't forget that FreeBSD includes stuff like Soft Updates and Vinum, which is under licenses as strict or more strict than the GPL. I use FreeBSD without these. They are not the default. I believe that someone should share without strings (GPL license usage) when they claim to be "free"-ly sharing. This is one of my complaints against the GPL. If they were claiming to be sharing within a select group, I would have no grief against it. Comp.Sci Students.. (Score:2, Insightful) by DJStealth (djstealth@no.spammers-xyz.mindless.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:21PM EST (#9) (User Info) As a student in Computer Science, it's nice to know that we can begin to learn from some well-known games. I'm sure there are many other students who are beginning to develop games and would like some form of hint in where to start. Well.. now they have a place. Thanks ID. Personally I'm not a games person, and I don't have much interest in programming games (I'm more of an OS and server person), but that won't stop me from taking a look at the source to see what I can find. Re:Comp.Sci Students.. (Score:1) by TeddyR (syousif@iname.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:51PM EST (#138) (User Info) https://www.mav.net/teddyr/syousif/ I would not be surprised if some .edu somewhere decides to have a class built around the code... even something like "here is the quake1 source code, make it better"... http://www.alug.org/ Re:Comp.Sci Students.. (Score:1) by deefer (deefer@[Spam:_Just_Say_No]dial.pipex.com) on Wednesday December 22, @04:29AM EST (#293) (User Info) http://www.deefer.dial.pipex.com Hehehe!!! Boy, I wish I was in that class!!! I can picture me in the labs at 4am, playing Q1 and about to get kicked out by the sysadmin.... "But I'm still testing!!!"Strong data typing is for those with weak minds. Good news for admins... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:22PM EST (#10) Now we'll be able to kill processes in 3d :) Expecting some interesting projects (Score:0, Redundant) by CrusadeR (crusader@linuxgames.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:22PM EST (#11) (User Info) http://www.linuxgames.com Considering the myriad of efforts that started when the Doom source was released (which was around 4 years old when it was made available), I'm excited at what development teams will do with a 3D-accelerated commercial grade engine with a robust network engine...:wq The obligatory mirrors (Score:5, Informative) by captaineo (dmaas@dcine.DIESPAMDIE.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:23PM EST (#13) (User Info) http://www.dcine.com Here's a start: Re:The obligatory mirrors (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:49PM EST (#69) Now if only we can get CmdrTaco to release the source code. Will we have to wait 5 years? Re:The obligatory mirrors (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:37PM EST (#120) good comment -- wrong forum for it. Use PHPslash, it is better anyways. -davidu Re:The obligatory mirrors (Score:1) by malice95 (malice@NoSpAm.exit109.com) on Wednesday December 22, @12:12AM EST (#224) (User Info) PHPslash? Where can I find this? Thanks.. Mike (totally offtopic btw:) Re:The obligatory mirrors (Score:1) by LetterJ (jwynia@earthlink.net) on Wednesday December 22, @07:57AM EST (#332) (User Info) http://home.earthlink.net/~jwynia PHPslash distribution. LetterJ "If you can't explain it to an 8-year-old, you don't understand it"--Albert Einstein Again? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:23PM EST (#14) Someone leaked it on an FTP site back in 96 but that lasted all of one day. id came down on them like a ton of bricks. Re:Again? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:38PM EST (#48) .. ya and that was source for beta code Re:Again? (Score:1, Interesting) by SyniK (synik@garbage.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:13PM EST (#103) (User Info) http://dilweed.myip.org crack dot com, www.crack.com, was cracked and the Quake 1 source was stolen. I have it on Archive CD somewhere. It would be interesting to see the differences from the stolen and the released sources.-SyniK Re:Again? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:03PM EST (#158) Not much.. :) Re:Again? (Score:1) by DocTee (tristan.rowley@ukonline.co.uk) on Wednesday December 22, @05:55AM EST (#302) (User Info) http://web.ukonline.co.uk/tristan.rowley/ I'd say it would be substantially different, actually. The source that was stolen a few years ago only went as far as winquake, as far as i remember; this includes the GL versions and QuakeWorld. There've been a LOT of changes since then. - DocTee near int *the_end = &now; while (time) {finalcurtain++;} Do a search on yahoo for quakesrc.tgz :P (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:07PM EST (#163) :) Bzzzt! Re:Do a search on yahoo for quakesrc.tgz :P (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:19PM EST (#187) No matches. Try 'Quakesrc' in altavista then. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:07AM EST (#220) This is the internet folks. That search may have worked 30 minutes ago.. but.. :) Tools (Score:1) by raskolnik (raskolnik@ihateclowns.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:23PM EST (#15) (User Info) Does anyone know where I can find info and the tools/compilers to mess around with this? "You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth." -Henrik Ibsen Re:Tools (Score:1) by jsewell on Tuesday December 21, @09:46PM EST (#57) (User Info) If you would have bothered to read the frickin article, you would know the answer to that. Hint: look in the second yellow paragraph. Mod impact (Score:1) by NightHwk on Tuesday December 21, @09:24PM EST (#16) (User Info) Will this have any impact for mods such as generations? Is artwork, levels, models etc still considerd to be property of the publisher? It would be nice to see some of the oldy and goody quake1 maps ported to q3 without any legal hangups. We're all in search of the perfect game when it comes to that, and I'd love to have at it on e1m7 with all the new tech of q3. Re:Mod impact (Score:2) by Imperator (imperator@mytherDOESNOTLIKESPAM.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:31PM EST (#30) (User Info) http://myther.com/ Quoth Carmack: All of the Quake data files remain copyrighted and licensed under the original terms, so you cannot redistribute data from the original game, but if you do a true total conversion, you can create a standalone game based on this code.Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves. Re:Mod impact (Score:2) by Inoshiro on Tuesday December 21, @09:34PM EST (#42) (User Info) http://www.thock.com/Dylan/ The reason Generations was pulled, was because they directly copied the levels, textures, and models from Quake 1, as well as the sounds from Quake 1, Doom, and Wolfenstein. These are licenced to GTInteractive, Apogee, and a few others I'm sure I've forgotten. The engine is John's to give away, but the artwork is not :-( This is also why the two Descents, as well as Doom and Wolfenstein code giveaways were not available with data files. Luckily, all new models and such created for Generations (like the Doom and Wolfenstein models and level recreations) are relatively safe.--- Internet Explorer (n): Another bug, that is, a feature that can't be turned off, in Windows. See also: monopoly. Re:Mod impact (Score:1) by Skid= on Wednesday December 22, @05:16AM EST (#296) (User Info) Actually Quake1 levels were rebuilt from scratch for generations. The Quake1 models were converted. But textures and sounds were directly pulled from the orignal games. We just worked under a misconception that everything was legal after a vague communication on both sides with ToddH =) Re:Mod impact (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:55PM EST (#143) Im just hoping now with the source fags won't make really good proxy bots and clients that can get around the cheat protection...... >:| Re:Mod impact (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @11:06AM EST (#399) Get with the times, mojo. Play Quake II like the rest of us. Re:Mod impact (Score:1) by torgo3000 on Thursday December 23, @01:57PM EST (#477) (User Info) http://www.ire.org/~al/ nothing beats House of Cthon with rockets in Q1. oh, and grapples, magic, heat seeking missles, and runes... Halflife, etc. (Score:1) by havardi on Tuesday December 21, @09:25PM EST (#17) (User Info) Wasn't Halflife based off a modified Quake 1 engine. Half-life shows that the engine can indeed be used to make specatular games. I've always wished Rainbow Six, Rouge Spear, etc used the Quake engine for multiplayer-- maybe now companies can provide decent multiplayer linux servers for all their FPS games! yay! not quake 1 ... (Score:1) by Augusto (augusto.sellhorn@_no._spa_._m_.ps.ge.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:27PM EST (#24) (User Info) ... but a modified quake 2.Flame on ! - Johnny Storm, Fantastic Four Re:not quake 1 ... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:28PM EST (#111) No. It's a heavily modified Quake I. Re:not quake 1 ... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @09:10AM EST (#363) Both of you are partly correct and partly incorrect :-) Work on Half-Life was initially started with the Quake engine licensed by Valve as a basis for the HL engine. Later, Valve also licensed the Quake 2 engine - there could be a number of reasons for this. The result is, of course, that Half-Life is partially based on Quake and partially on Quake 2. Re:Halflife, etc. (Score:2) by CaptainCarrot (carrot@watch.ankh-morpork.gov) on Tuesday December 21, @09:30PM EST (#29) (User Info) I believe its actually based on the Quake 2 engine. Does anyone recall any other games using the Quake 1 engine? None leap to mind right now. Re:Halflife, etc. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:29PM EST (#112) Daikatana? Pahahahah... Re:Halflife, etc. (Score:1) by CaptainCarrot (carrot@watch.ankh-morpork.gov) on Tuesday December 21, @11:49PM EST (#209) (User Info) You're cruel. BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Re:Halflife, etc. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:21AM EST (#227) Hexen II was made from a modified Quake I engine. Re:Halflife, etc. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:18AM EST (#256) Wasn't there a semi-crappy game called Chasm - The Rift that was based on Quake 1? Halflife is Quake 1 (Score:1) by Render (mhansen.no@spam.intelogis.com) on Wednesday December 22, @10:42AM EST (#390) (User Info) > I believe its actually based on the Quake 2 engine. Nope. Half-Life is built on the engine from the original Quake -- this same gem we were just handed -- and not Quake 2. Even though HL was released well after Quake 2's release, the programmers at Valve had already implemented many of the improvements from Q1-Q2 in their own code, so there was no need for them to license Q2 and upgrade. HL is a Q1-derived game. Improvements to the engine include: * Skeletal animation (Q1 was frame-based, Q2 was frame-interpolated) * 16-bit colored textures (Q1-Q2 supported only 8-bit textures) * Colored lighting effects (Q2 added this, but HL had it already) * Direct3D rendering (Quake only supported OpenGL in hardware; HL supported both OGL and D3D) * A bunch of scripting stuff * blah blah blah Point is, Quake 2 didn't bring anything to the table that Valve hadn't already surpassed, so they went with their own technology. Sin, OTOH, is a Quake 2 TC right down to its frame-interpolated toes. Not that Quake 2 is a shoddy product for not having improved over Quake as much as Half-Life. Remember that Quake 2 was the only the second Quake-derived game to market. Given a development cycle as long as Half-Life's, id could have done miracles with that engine. I can't think of any other games based on only Quake I, other than Hexen II -- Raven is always to first to market with their id-derived games. There were some other games announced from Quake technology when Hexen II hit. HL, Sin, Daikatana, and (of all games) Golgotha. HL released based on Quake I. Sin and Daikatana switched to Q2. Golgotha changed its engine entirely -- I don't remember reading why. Its source is of course now available but nothing much is going on with the project. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one. This move by Carmack to release the code surprises me. I once remember reading that he had planned not to release until the last Quake engine game shipped. But we're still waiting on Daikatana. (I think the upcoming Soldier of Fortune is also Q2-based). I wonder how Romero's taking this? Re:Halflife, etc. (Score:1) by RodStewart (robswin[at]hempseed.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:39PM EST (#49) (User Info) http://www.phish.net The other comments repilying to this thread are half truths, half-life is mostly quake 1 code modified by valve with some quake2 components."Are you satisfied with fucking?" - Dave Matthews from "Halloween" Re:Halflife, etc. (Score:1) by Render (mhansen.no@spam.intelogis.com) on Wednesday December 22, @10:52AM EST (#394) (User Info) Hmmm... Now that I think about it, you're right. Valve did license Quake 2 and there are bits of the code in HL. But the vast majority of the Quake code is Q1. Not surprising since Q2 itself is a hacked-up Q1 game. Daikatana is still a POS. actually it does use the quake (I) engine (Score:2, Informative) by havardi on Tuesday December 21, @09:39PM EST (#50) (User Info) Valve originally licensed the source for Quake from id Software and they began working on that code around October of 1996. Between that time and the time they finished Half-Life in October of 1998, they modified/removed/created something like 70% of the code. --Taken from the Official FAQ Re:actually it does use the quake (I) engine (Score:2) by plunge (cosym@yahoo.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:58PM EST (#149) (User Info) http://cosym.net Even more than that by the end actually- but some of the basic BSP rendering stuff is still the same. Keep in mind that the handful of guys who did it had several years, and it was their day job. And that that engine, though beautiful in its time, is already outdated. And most of the things that made Half-life great wasn't the quake-type engine itself, but rather the animations, linking sound to moving mouths, and the well designed gameplay and content. yes it was (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:04PM EST (#92) Half-Life is a very heavily modified Quake engine. Only 30% of it is the orginal code in half life. Hmmm.... Quake Goodies (Score:2, Interesting) by ndnet on Tuesday December 21, @09:25PM EST (#18) (User Info) http://www.ndnet.org/ While its slow to happen, the ability of individuals to freely develop 3d games and apps is increasing. A while back Chex had a doom-based cd-rom game on their site, and they had to pay for it. But the GPLing allows anyone with a slight bit of graphics talent to build their own independant game. And with Quake now open source, enhancments can be added easier, I.E. the loveable PAIN package (I loved web-swinging like spiderman with the grappling hook and harpoon.) Think of the possibilities. XBill 3D would be cool. Ever seen that episode of the new Jonny Quest where they delete data by shooting it? Make directories into rooms, etc. And yes, the process killer will have to be ported too. We could easily have selectable 'levels' signifying file management, process managment, wiping windows, network sniffing, and more! That's all I want to go on about for now. Hey everyone, please vote for geek number 1 (me!) in the after y2k ( www.nitrozac.com ) look-a-like contest.Visit my geeky search engine today @ http://www.ndnet.org/ or else tomorrow it may well be sucked up by Bill Gates of Borg. Re:Hmmm.... Quake Goodies (Score:1) by bwelling (bwelling@xbill.org) on Tuesday December 21, @09:33PM EST (#38) (User Info) http://www.xbill.org/~bwelling > XBill 3D would be cool. Yeah, it would. I wish I had the time to learn about 3D game programming, and the artistic talent to create the models :) Re:Hmmm.... Quake Goodies (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @01:59PM EST (#478) Duh if people actually *wanted* those things, there are MANY engines out there that work better than the quake that have been GPL/LGPL for a long time now. Vindictive Licensing (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:26PM EST (#110) But the GPLing allows anyone with a slight bit of graphics talent to build their own independEnt game. And never make a red cent off it. This is exactly what we'd expect from a greedy and competitive business (meaning: all businness that wants to survive). They'll let you see what they've done only on condition that you can never compete with them, never add your own value that you might possible sell. Closing off a product to commercial enhancement is exactly what we'd expect from a commercial entity. It's simple self-preservation. It's very good that this has been open-sourced. People will learn a lot from it. I don't mean to underestimate that. But please don't be overstating their benificence. You can open-source something in ways that close-profit it. It makes perfect sense for a business to do this. They can't afford to make it free, but you can look at it. Re:Vindictive Licensing (Score:1) by D2Deek on Tuesday December 21, @11:17PM EST (#184) (User Info) http://dusknet.dhis.net/~deek/ What vindictive licensing? It's the GPL, which is strangely enough perfect for games. The great part of this situation is that you can create your own game, and sell it. The code is not what's valuable from a game point of view, it's the data files -- and those belong to YOU if you created them. Charge fifty bucks a CD, no problem...you just have to give people the source to the engine. Big deal, the engine is not the game -- it's just the interpreter that runs the game. Re:Vindictive Licensing (Score:1) by Erik Hollensbe on Wednesday December 22, @03:18AM EST (#281) (User Info) But you forget that iD and Epic (Unreal) probably make the majority of their money in source licensing, which was very profitable for the Quake2 engine. -Erik-"I'm sick of limiting myself, to be of your definition..." Incubus, Redefine Re:Vindictive Licensing (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @05:23PM EST (#450) Yes, and guess what? They GPLed Q1, NOT their most recent engine. No one is going to pay them to license Q1 anyway, and if their competitors use the GPLed code without paying them, they will only end up with an inferior engine... something that id would love to see happen :) Just speculation... (Score:2) by V. (nrvale0@pop.uky.edu) on Tuesday December 21, @09:26PM EST (#19) (User Info) http://sac.uky.edu/~nrvale0 ...but I wonder if part of their motivation for doing this is to increase the number of coders familiar with 3D engines. Seeding the future labor pool so to speak. But then again... maybe it's just because they're good guys(and gals). Re:Just speculation... (Score:1) by 348 (beeoch22@hotmail.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:37PM EST (#47) (User Info) Good guys??? The product no longer made any money. They dont really need to keep it under wraps any longer. IMHO this is just an easy way to get big time media coverage. The sites being /.'d now, tomorrow all the geek trades will have a blurb about it.I like id's stuff as much as the next guy, but this sure looks like a press campain around a product that is being decomissioned. Re:Just speculation... (Score:1) by jawad (jawad@nycap.rr.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:47PM EST (#60) (User Info) http://jawad.org/ I disagree. I don't think this is a publicity stunt. This is akin to a person having something, using it, and when they've gotten sick of it, offering it to everyone else. I'd much rather have them go "anyone want this?" as opposed to just trashing it (or, putting it aside and not touching it again). They know it doesn't make money. We know it doesn't make money. But they know we want it anyway. Thanks, id.First Post of 2000 (EST) Re:Just speculation... (Score:1) by Lando (lando_slash@rtsg.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:53PM EST (#75) (User Info) http://www.rtsg.com John has been releasing the source code for all of his games a year after moving to a new engine. He had originally intended to ship out the quake source code last Christmas if I remember correctly. So he is a year late, but yeah I'd definately say that he is one of the good guys. He releases his code. I wish a couple of other gaming companies would do the same. He also contributes to other open source projects. If you want you can bitch about how poor his code is, but having looked through the code now, I'm suprized at how clean it actually is, but don't bitch that the guy(s) aren't helping out... LandoI have a T1, need suggestions for it's use. E-mail me with suggestions Re:Just speculation... (Score:4, Informative) by John Carmack on Tuesday December 21, @09:58PM EST (#82) (User Info) Heh. You don't know how much trouble it is to convince biz oriented people that this isn't just plain stupid. While thinking in terms of money and profit are probably good ways of understanding the way most things work in the world, don't let yourself become so jaded or cynical to think that it is the ONLY way things work. I do think The World Would Be A Better Place if all software companies released older code so users still interested could work with it or learn from it. (I'm not holding my breath, though) John Carmack Re:Just speculation... (Score:2, Interesting) by D3TH (d3th (at) hotmail.com) on Tuesday December 21, @11:54PM EST (#213) (User Info) I'm in the process of trying to get an internal piece of software released open source. It is a very limited purpose application, with no potential to generate revenue. It was written specifically to address a problem faced by a large number of people, and has the potential to generate massive waves of goodwill towards the company where I work. The funny part is that although my bosses agree with the above statements, they are unwilling to move the process forward. There seems to be an inherent barrier in business to giving something (especially software) away, even when there are other (non-monetary) potential benefits. This company is capable of spending thousands of dollers on a magazine advertisement, but is unwilling to release a fairly simple script that has the potential to generate a much larger amount of business. I would love to hear from others who have experienced this attitude and especially anyone has successfully overcome it. --- There are 3 questions everyone must sometime answer: Who am I? Where am I going? and How much caffiene is it going to take to stay awake all night? Re:Just speculation... (Score:1) by Chameleon (spam_chameleo@xcelco.on.ca_spam) on Wednesday December 22, @10:55AM EST (#396) (User Info) http://www.tetrion.com/~chameleo/index.shtml Wouldn't it be so much easier if you were John Carmack? :-) ..not to mention the moderator points! Wow! :-)-- Chris Dunham http://www.tetrion.com/~chameleo/index.shtml ICQ: 321212 Re:Just speculation... (Score:1) by mvw (van.woerkom@netcologne.de) on Wednesday December 22, @02:31AM EST (#272) (User Info) http://www.freebsd.org/~3d I do think The World Would Be A Better Place if all software companies released older code so users still interested could work with it or learn from it. (I'm not holding my breath, though) It is a graceful way to end development. Imagine they would have done it during Apple ][ times. A whole game culture is only available today as memory images with questionable legal status. Another culture vanishing is OS/2. Hope IBM will decide to release their sources one day. - Regards, Marc - Re:Just speculation... (Digressing for a moment) (Score:1) by KristianC (kristian@spam.is.bad.for.you.nycap.rr.com) on Wednesday December 22, @10:40AM EST (#389) (User Info) http://deityx.tripod.com I believe that IBM is still developing Warp Server, so don't hold your breath. OS/2 was perhaps the most stable OS I ever ran. Supported dos better than MS-DOS. Windows programs weren't stable (these are Windows apps we're talking about), but at least a misbehaving app didn't crash my system (or even other windows and dos vm's!) Stardock (makers of Object Desktop, probably single most useful program I ever saw for OS/2) was trying to get IBM to let them further develop a client version. IBM, of course, in their infinite wisdom, said no. Stardock moved on, I wish them well, but I won't be buying Object Desktop for Win. OS/2 will never be Open Source (Score:2) by Sloppy (sloppy@spam^H^H^H^Hrt66.com) on Wednesday December 22, @01:07PM EST (#423) (User Info) Another culture vanishing is OS/2. Hope IBM will decide to release their sources one day. My understanding is that they can't because Microsoft owns part of it too. And, as you can imagine, it would not be in Microsoft's interest for OS/2 to go Open Source. It would make OS/2 more viable and increase the users' number of choices. From Microsoft's point of view, Choice is Bad Thing, so this simply cannot be allowed to happen. OS/2 will never be freed from its owners, and therefore is permanently dead, unless IBM changes their mind about marketing it. (BTW, I am typing this on an OS/2 box.)--- Have a Sloppy night! Re:Just speculation... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:24AM EST (#345) I really wish more game companies would take the attitude that id does. Imagine if Blizzard went and released the source to Warcraft? What kind of impact would that have on everyone writing 2D RTS games! Or Microsoft (cough) releasing the source to (well, whatever they produce). Also it would be great (hell, I'd buy a few more hard drives) if some of the companies released source for their really old games. I would kill small bunnies to learn how Sid Meir got Railroad Tycoon to work in 512K. Wouldn't you?? Thanks id for continuing to help the gaming community in so many ways! Re:Just speculation... (Score:1) by tomblackwell (tomb@switchboardmail.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:09PM EST (#99) (User Info) http://www.musicinsight.com And what have you given the public? Re:Just speculation... (Score:1) by RalphWiggum (news@wiggum.com) on Wednesday December 22, @08:47AM EST (#358) (User Info) http://www.wiggum.com You mean besides making the best games on the planet and opening the source to Doom and Quake as well as keep OpenGL popular when everyone else is going to evil Direct3D?Newman! Re:Just speculation... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @02:46PM EST (#434) Wolf3D source, Doom source, now Quake source. Plus creating engines that the public can make modifications to to add onto the game. I think that's plenty more than some. Re:Just speculation... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:40PM EST (#52) Even if this does serve to increase the number of coders knowledgable about 3D engines...is that a bad thing? Knowledge == Bad ? Re:Just speculation... (Score:1) by Phrogman (atho@pagans.org) on Tuesday December 21, @11:31PM EST (#199) (User Info) http://www.omphalos.net In a recent interview Carmack said that he might start thinking about VRML, now that he is done QIII, since the current efforts "look like a joke"(my paraphrase of his words) if you have seen 3D gaming. Maybe this is simply the first option on his part to help create a better 3D environment. Certainly anything based on the Quake model would make a good start for a more realistic VRML technology. Connection refused (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:26PM EST (#20) Already ! Maybe someone who already got the stuff could start opening mirror. Please please... Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:2, Interesting) by nutty on Tuesday December 21, @09:26PM EST (#22) (User Info) This great news for every multi-OS quaker out there, but how will this effect the Mac port? macsoft took time and money to do thier codin, and i really doubt they'll gpl THAT.Anyone know more then me?--- "Software is like sex. It's better when it's free." -Linus Torvalds Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:32PM EST (#35) Wait for a mac coder to take up the job of porting the GPL'd version, it might happen, if not.. "oh well", you'll live. =P Mac glquake should be pretty easy now (Score:4, Informative) by John Carmack on Tuesday December 21, @09:33PM EST (#41) (User Info) Producing a mac version of glquake or glquakeworld should be pretty easy with the existing code now that Apple has real OpenGL support. Producing a version of the software renderer with decent performance would be VERY HARD. A huge amount of effort went into the assembly optimization for the PPC, and it still didn't quite measure up to the x86 code. John Carmack Is that really JC? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:48PM EST (#62) In the words of Neo... "Woah!" [OT] yes (Score:1) by Imperator (imperator@mytherDOESNOTLIKESPAM.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:55PM EST (#79) (User Info) http://myther.com/ Yes, and he's posted here before. This is /., and it's no big deal.Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves. NO BIG DEAL??? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:40PM EST (#124) ITS A VERY BIG DEAL! HE IS A GOD. RESPECT HIM. Re:Is that really JC? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:47PM EST (#207) >>>In the words of Neo... "Woah!" You mean in the words of every character that Keanu has played. Pay very close attention- he says "Woah!" in every movie that he does. ------------------------------------- For more info on the Ted theory visit http://www.evilted.com Re:Is that really JC? (Score:1) by Fruan (Kennp@ihug,co,nz) on Wednesday December 22, @12:57PM EST (#422) (User Info) I am rather certain that Budda did not say "whoa" :o) Has any one else noticed that Keanu seems to play the messiah disturbingly often? Lets see... 'Bill and Ted', 'Little Budda', 'The Matrix', 'Johnny Mnenomic'? I don't remember the plot of that one very well.-- Shawn Poulsen (Fruan) "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy" - Hamlet. Act 1 Scene V. Re:Is that really JC? (Score:1) by Trojan on Wednesday December 22, @01:59PM EST (#431) (User Info) There's something about JC... Jesus Christ, Johan Cruyff, John Carmack. Re:Mac glquake should be pretty easy now (Score:1) by nutty on Tuesday December 21, @09:52PM EST (#74) (User Info) I bow humbly, knowing that John Carmack replied to my mail. my 15 minutes of fame! Excuse me while I go tell everyone I know... :) "Software is like sex. It's better when it's free." -Linus Torvalds Re:Mac glquake should be pretty easy now (Score:1) by Bill Currie (bill@taniwha.org) on Wednesday December 22, @01:41AM EST (#264) (User Info) http://www.taniwha.org/ Hehe, and I thought I was blessed when Zoid replied to one of my postings. I have a vague inkling of how you feel:). "Extra" karma? (Score:1) by barzok on Tuesday December 21, @10:10PM EST (#101) (User Info) http://home.twcny.rr.com/andylevy/ Is there any way we can get folks like John Carmack to have instant karma so that in cases like this, their posts get scored way up automatically? Granted, not everyone deserves it, but people on the level of JohnC or Linus (though I doubt he'd post much here) would be writing stuff worthy of high moderation - why waste moderation points? Why? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:08PM EST (#166) The most you can get out of karma is a +1 bonus anyway, so that your posts start out at 2. So what do you suggest? Some sort of "famous" user flag that start posts off at +5? It's sort of disingenuous to suggest that well-known people should get some sort of reward for being well-known. Don't get me wrong. I like Carmack, I like Quake, I like Id Software, and I like Jennifer Love Hewitt. But even if Love Hewitt started posting here, there's no reason why she should get some sort of bonus on the basis of her celebrity. I don't think that Slashdot needs the sort of celebrity worship that permeates programs like Entertainment Tonight (and the entire E! television network.) If Hewitt, Carmack, or Torvalds log in and post informative or interesting comments, they will be moderated up as per the existing system. If they post grits trolls, they will be moderated down. Works for me. :-) Re:Why? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:52PM EST (#212) Man, I just had this vision of John Carmack posting: FIRST POST!!!! HOT GRITS DOWN MY PANTS!!!! and I nearly pissed myself. :'-D Thanks for the laugh. Re:Why? hahahaha (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @02:44AM EST (#275) grits.au "hello, this is linus torvalds, and I pour hot grits down the front of my pants" Instant Karma! John Lennon? (Score:2, Funny) by Bill Daras on Wednesday December 22, @12:21AM EST (#228) (User Info) Not going to say a word.... Instant Karma (Score:1) by Vryl on Wednesday December 22, @01:58AM EST (#269) (User Info) Is the source of all evil. I speak as moderator form the very first days when 'ordinary' /.ers could moderate. Just because you are Carmack or ESR or RMS or Christiansen does NOT mean that EVERYTHING you post is worth of a moderation increase. In fact, as some of Toms replies to flamebait prove, often they should be moderated down. If a post is judged worthy by the collective wisdom of /. then it will be moderated up accordingly, and does not need the +1. All the moderation bonus does in produce envy and increases the much discussed /. signal to noise ratio as ppl (like me right now) discuss it. It also promotes heirarchies, essentially saying 'I am more worthy than you'. /. would be fairer and better without it. I think the /. moderation system is an amazing thing, but does no need the bonus system at all. Re:Instant Karma (Score:2) by harmonica on Wednesday December 22, @09:23AM EST (#366) (User Info) I totally agree. And instant karma is also unnecessary because the real good stuff usually gets moderated up very fast. I'm always amazed that there must (?) be so many folks with moderation points so that insightful links etc. are going up to five only minutes after the message was posted. How many Slashdot readers with accounts are there? To the original poster: If you're interested in all that JC had to say in this forum, simply click on his user info and you get a list of his statements. Re:Mac glquake should be pretty easy now (Score:0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:59PM EST (#152) Hey John, did the leaking of the source (3 years ago? 4? my memory is bad) in any way delay this release? Personally, I wouldn't have worried about it, because leaked source can't be used commercially, only for things like a SVGALib version (ahem), but I'm curious how you felt about that. Perhaps Westlake could release their code? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @03:10PM EST (#436) John, dunno if you're still bothering to read this thread, but... Any chance you could suggest to Mark Adams over at Westlake Interactive that they release their source to the already-ported versions of MacQuake, MacGLQuake and (most importantly) the never-finished MacGLQuakeWorld? (BTW, congrats on your engagement.) Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:3, Informative) by Millennium (rbg6038@spamspameggsbaconandspam.rit.edu) on Tuesday December 21, @09:50PM EST (#70) (User Info) One: MacSoft didn't code MacQuake. Westlake Interactive did. MacSoft only distributed it; they outsourced the development. Two: I think Westlake has to Open-Source their stuff now, including all six Quakes they did (software, 3Dfx, RAVE, QWsoftware, QW3Dfx, QWRAVE). They were based off the original Quake source, after all, and probably still contain chunks of it (particularly the QuakeC engine and the file-translation routines). I should also point out that the 3Dfx (and, if I'm not mistaken, RAVE) versions were themselves ports of GLQuake with the rendering engine changed as appropriate. So while the Mac doesn't have a "true" GLQuake, it has pretty much the same thing already. A true GLQuake would be nice, though, and shouldn't be too hard since we already have two very similar programs.-Millennium Oops; bad link... (Score:2) by Millennium (rbg6038@spamspameggsbaconandspam.rit.edu) on Tuesday December 21, @09:52PM EST (#72) (User Info) That should be www.westlakeinteractive.com. Sorry about the mixup.-Millennium Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:1) by Lando (lando_slash@rtsg.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:01PM EST (#87) (User Info) http://www.rtsg.com These games do not have to be GPL'd, the engine was GPL'd, but doesn't mean that all versions have been GPL'd. John and the rest of the id team can not retroactively remove permissions or add permission to a contract... unless the other person agrees. Even now, John suggests that everyone should use the GPL'd engine. But if you really want to protect your code, you can contract with id for a different license. As the copywrite owner id can release the engine however they see fit. Lando I have a T1, need suggestions for it's use. E-mail me with suggestions Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:41PM EST (#127) These games do not have to be GPL'd, the engine was GPL'd, but doesn't mean that all versions have been GPL'd. You're wrong. That's not how the GPL works. There are no applications that are half free and have enslaved. The freedom knows no limits. It's all open now. Hallelujah! Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:56PM EST (#144) go read the GPL if you even for a second believed this troll. Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:01PM EST (#155) We've all read the GPL. And in this case, it applies to the whole game, because they're essential components. WE WIN! Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:1) by spinkham on Tuesday December 21, @11:17PM EST (#181) (User Info) They are NOT essential components. Total conversions are avalible for quake 2, I think quake1 has at least one too.. Also, anyone can make their own maps and textures, what you are saying is like complaining that less doesn't come with al the authors text files, or gimp doesn't come with all the authors pictures. If what you were saying was true, all GPL'd toolkits would be illegal Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @05:32PM EST (#452) The GPL requirements do not apply to the copyright owner (id), only to people who distribute the code further. So, if I take the Q1 source and give it to you along with the game data files, AND if you believe the GPL considers them to be a 'derived work' of the code (highly unlikely), then I am breaking the terms of the GPL if I don't offer the data files under the terms of the GPL as well. However, the only relief the GPL specifies in this case is that I must stop distributing in this case. Since you're not the copyright owner, you have no rights to bring a court case against me. (you can claim I violated the terms of a contract we both agreed on, but no court would be interested in the case) id is the copyright holder, and they could sue me for breaking the terms of the GPL to force me to stop distributing the Q1 source along with non GPL-ed game data files. (again, IF the gpl is interpreted so that the data files are 'derivations' of the Q1 source code, which is clearly not the case). No one other than id can do anything about it in practice. This is because they are the actual copyright owner; the rest of us are stuck obeying the license they chose (GPL in this case). Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:2, Insightful) by spinkham on Tuesday December 21, @10:09PM EST (#98) (User Info) Nope, westlake is free to keep their stuff propriatary under the license they originally got the code under.. The owner of the code can release the code to as many different people under as many different licenses as he wishes, and the code stays under the licence it is issued under even if it is issued again to someone else... In one of the text files that comes with the source, this was said: "If you want to do something commercial and you just can't bear to have your source changes released, we could still negotiate a separate license agreement (for $$), but I would encourage you to just live with the GPL." Typical commercial licenses are still availible, if silly at this point.. Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:36PM EST (#119) Macsoft and Westlake do not need to GPL their Quake products. Remember - iD owns the copyright on these products and has given Macsoft and Westlake a lisence to do these ports that is different from the GPL. This older lisence is still in effect. That's the advantage to owning stuff - you can release it under multiple lisences. (Even PERL is released under 2 - the GPL and Artistic.) ---matt Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:2) by emerson on Tuesday December 21, @10:54PM EST (#142) (User Info) >Two: I think Westlake has to Open-Source their stuff now, including all six Quakes they did >(software, 3Dfx, RAVE, QWsoftware, QW3Dfx, QWRAVE). They were based off the original Quake >source, after all, and probably still contain chunks of it (particularly the QuakeC engine and >the file-translation routines). That code was licensed from id separately. The fact that code from the same source tree (or even identical code) was later released under GPL does not affect that licensing agreement; even the GPL is not so viral as to affect licenses already in place when a GPL release is made. The only Quake I code that will be bound by the GPL (barring other third-party code later being thus released) is additions and modifications made to THIS particular blob of code and all of its subsequent spinoffs and later versions. The GPLed tree starts here. Although it would be The Decent Thing(tm) for Westlake to mirror the gesture, they are under no license-bound obligation to do so. -- The average Slashdotter seems genuinely to think that the entire 'Net could be run on beige x86 boxes running Linux. The GPL is a super disinfectant (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:05PM EST (#161) even the GPL is not so viral ... Stop right there in your tracks. The GPL is a good virus! It's just trying to make more software free so greedy commercial interests can't hoard the source just to pad their own fat wallets. If you ask him, you'll find that Richard does not like the term "virus", because of its negative connotation. Richard prefers "disinfectant" because that's got a good connotation of killing something that was evil to begin with. The GPL is an infinitely powerful disinfectant that spreads its healthful vigour to everything close to it, killing enslaving licenses that would otherwise get in its way. Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:1) by Andrew Cady (afcady at home.net) on Wednesday December 22, @08:29AM EST (#346) (User Info) Obviously YANAL (YOU are not a lawyer). The copyright holder of a work can license it as many times as he wants under whatever different licenses he wants. ID's license to MacSoft can't just be repealed by ID. Those licenses, which were probably NDA's, are still valid. The GPL license is also valid to whomever accepts it (by copying it without another license from ID). That's why the GPL says "nothing else grants you permission to copy". But with MacSoft, something else *does* grant them that right - their original contract. I'm not a lawyer either, btw, but I have read a bit about copyright law.Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song? Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:1) by artemis67 on Wednesday December 22, @09:59AM EST (#379) (User Info) If GPL'ing the Quake source code forced everyone who used the codebase to GPL their source, it would be a very bad thing, and unlikely to happen. Bear in mind that, among others, Valve licensed the codebase for Quake, and in spite of the fact that they rewrote 70% of it, having to release the codebase for HL, OF, TFC, and TFC2 would probably hurt them greatly. Re:Thats great but what about other OS's? (Score:1) by Mr. Ascii (casimir(at)tgsgeo.com) on Thursday December 23, @09:15AM EST (#472) (User Info) Bear in mind that, among others, Valve licensed the codebase for Quake, and in spite of the fact that they rewrote 70% of it, having to release the codebase for HL, OF, TFC, and TFC2 would probably hurt them greatly. Ahh, but then maybe we could see Half Life on the Mac. Walnut Creek mirror (Score:4, Informative) by Imperator (imperator@mytherDOESNOTLIKESPAM.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:27PM EST (#23) (User Info) http://myther.com/ ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/idgames/ids tuff/source/ or the file itself: ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub /idgames/idstuff/source/q1source.zipGates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves. Alas, Daikatana (Score:1, Insightful) by Butcher (cbutcher@eeyore.otago.ac.nz) on Tuesday December 21, @09:28PM EST (#26) (User Info) http://www.cs.otago.ac.nz/postgrads/cbutcher/ It's rather telling that id have released the source code to Quake free to the public before one of their original Quake-engine licensees has managed to ship. :) Oh well. They only need to sell 2 million copies to recoup their development costs, as Todd Porter told us about six months ago. - Butcher Re:Alas, Daikatana (Score:1) by Cycon on Tuesday December 21, @10:08PM EST (#97) (User Info) http://cogengine.linuxbox.com Actually, Daikatana is based on the Quake2 engine, which has not been released yet. Of course neither has Daikatana, so who knows... (c: Re:Alas, Daikatana (Score:2, Insightful) by Inoshiro on Tuesday December 21, @10:56PM EST (#147) (User Info) http://www.thock.com/Dylan/ They licenced the Quake 1 engine, originally. I read an interview with Romero. He said it was hard on the team when Q2 was released because it was code he wasn't familiar with from his id software work, and so they had to start from scratch again (almost). Eitherway, I think Half-Life is more fun ;-) Perhaps we'll see some interesting Quake 1 TFC related work.--- Internet Explorer (n): Another bug, that is, a feature that can't be turned off, in Windows. See also: monopoly. Re:Alas, Daikatana (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:59PM EST (#151) 2 million copies lol Re:Alas, Daikatana (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:15AM EST (#340) 2 million copies lol Yeah, 2 mil copies at like 500 per each. OpenVMS port (Score:1) by VAXGeek on Tuesday December 21, @09:28PM EST (#27) (User Info) First one to port it to OpenVMS gets extra credit points. Re:OpenVMS port (Score:1) by RodStewart (robswin[at]hempseed.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:04PM EST (#91) (User Info) http://www.phish.net and a bottle of scotch. ...well not from me of course; but you deserve one ;). "Are you satisfied with fucking?" - Dave Matthews from "Halloween" Re:OpenVMS port (Score:0, Redundant) by RodStewart (robswin[at]hempseed.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:04PM EST (#94) (User Info) http://www.phish.net and a bottle of scotch. ...well not from me of course, but you deserve one ;). "Are you satisfied with fucking?" - Dave Matthews from "Halloween" *Very* smart business decision (Score:2) by EngrBohn (cbohn@ieee.org?subject=Slashdot Comment) on Tuesday December 21, @09:29PM EST (#28) (User Info) http://members.aol.com/EngrBohn/ I suppose you could say this is building good-will within the free software community without costing them anymore revenue, and that would be completely true, but this decision is even smarter than just that. The way to get hired by a computer gaming company is to "show them the source" -- in particular, demonstrate that you can write cool games. By GPL'ing Quake I, id Software is increasing their pool of potential employees to include those who can develop a good 3D game if only they had a good 3D engine that's less than four years old.Christopher A. Bohn Oooh! What does this button do!? Is it a business decision? (Score:1) by GoofyBoy on Tuesday December 21, @09:46PM EST (#59) (User Info) >id Software is increasing their pool of potential employees to include those who can develop a good 3D game I'm not too sure about this. I would want an employee which can come up with something new, not just copy an old way of doing something. Likewise, I don't think that Microsoft will release the code for Office just to increase the employee supply. I would like to think that Carmack is just doing that annoying "nice guy, give back to the programming/gaming community which I have learned/benifited so much from" thingy. Bah-humbug to you John Carmack. :) Re:Is it a business decision? (Score:2) by Wah (t h e w a h @ uswest . net) on Wednesday December 22, @12:57AM EST (#246) (User Info) http://wahcentral.net If microsfot was a "cool" company, like id (and thats a loong stick to measure by), they would release their old "useless code". It's the best way not to have to support it. Maybe that should be a law? If you won't support your own software, you have to GPL it, or at least open the source. Opening the 5/8 year old Office95/Win3.11 code could be tremendously helpful to (new) developers. At the very least they make great case studies for student courses. If these are the "greatest engineering task(s) in human history" then perhaps we should learn how they got there..blah, blah, just pissed at M stuff for eating some email. information wants to be free, and, yes, that does include all your personal info. Re:Is it a business decision? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @10:54AM EST (#395) Useless like the source code to MS-DOS3.3? FYI, I've seen it (3.3's source). It's crap. Considering it was considered by many DOS-heads to be the pinnacle of DOS, I doubt anything later will be much better. Re:*Very* smart business decision (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:02PM EST (#157) While this source release is certainly a great thing, and I thank JC for both this, and more importantly, his work on the G200 and ATI GLX drivers, I think this source release is mostly useful for historical and nostolgic reasons. Anyone attempting to write a GPLed game would be better off extending the Crystal Space engine. Its much more advanced than Q1 (obviously, q1 is 4 years old!). Just what I wanted for Christmas (Score:1) by Zalgon 26 McGee on Tuesday December 21, @09:31PM EST (#31) (User Info) Thanks Santa! Many kudos to all at ID for this generous contribution. There is an error in the title here though: it's only the source that's been GPL'd. The artwork and such are still the intellectual property of ID On another note, Mr Claus, if you know who's been naughty and who's been nice, could you give me a copy of the list of naughty girls? Many thanks. ---Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. My addendum: Sturgeon was on optimist. One little two little three litte kudos--NOT! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:13PM EST (#176) Many kudos to all at ID for this generous contribution. Nope. "Kudos" is not a plural. You can't have "many kudos" any more than you have have "many pathos". Spice Girls Quake Level (Score:0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:32PM EST (#34) Have you played the Spice Girls Quake Plug-in? You can battle Posh, Sporty, Ginger (okay, she's no longer a Spice Girl), Scary and Baby. Also, David Beckham and Chris Evans are bosses with rocket launchers and chainguns! Read about all this and more at the Saucy Spice Girls Page What...no petrification ray?! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:46PM EST (#58) Just joking around. Re:What...no petrification ray?! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:49PM EST (#66) You forgot to add: BEEEEYACH! CODE IT YOURSELF LUSER! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:41PM EST (#125) I am currently in the process of adding the first post annihilator code.. you can write the natalie portman petrification routines if you'd like. Amazing... (Score:3, Insightful) by mecca on Tuesday December 21, @09:32PM EST (#37) (User Info) http://zoid.com/ I think I will have to buy QuakeIII now just to support a company that is so cool. Doh, Guess I'll have to get a Voodoo3 as well. Come to think of it, this GPL announcement just cost me over 100 bucks.Have you checked out Zoid.com yet? Zoid.com free? (Score:1) by passion (passionatmonkeydotorg) on Wednesday December 22, @11:43AM EST (#405) (User Info) this GPL announcement just cost me over 100 bucks. Who ever said that software was free?- passion Re:free? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 24, @11:27AM EST (#489) speech, not beer Voodoo3 ack! (Score:1) by zdarnell (zach@zdarnell.org) on Friday December 24, @04:27AM EST (#488) (User Info) http://www.zdarnell.org no! no! Get a TNT2 Ultra or GeForce 256, mmm, nvidia Anybody know how GAS2MASM works? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:33PM EST (#40) Keep trying to run it on the .S files as the readme file suggests, but it doesn't understand the #include and other #-directives in the .S files. I'm a MASM user who doesn't know anything about GAS -- what do I need to do? Re:Anybody know how GAS2MASM works? (Score:1) by jflynn on Tuesday December 21, @10:05PM EST (#95) (User Info) Your compiler should provide an option to just run the pre-processor on the gas source, which should output a file with all # constructs removed. Maybe GAS2MASM might work on that file. Re:Anybody know how GAS2MASM works? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:12PM EST (#102) Yep, you're right, turns out it has to go through the C preprocessor (MSVC with the /EP option) first. That wasn't working on my build because I built GAS2MASM in release mode, whereas the makefile expects GAS2MASM.EXE in the debug directory. thanks Official CVS (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:36PM EST (#43) Somebody should take the initiative and set up the unofficial public CVS where the quakeworld source could be further developed. As I understand it quakeworld was abandoned by Zoid as a work in progress and there even is a list of things that still need to be improved upon in a text file included with the source. With a little luck the Quake1 shareware pak file will be GPL'd and then every Linux distribution could include a fully working copy of Quake1! Life would be great... Tim Re:Official CVS (Score:1) by Imperator (imperator@mytherDOESNOTLIKESPAM.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:52PM EST (#73) (User Info) http://myther.com/ A project is more than just a CVS server. It needs direction (usually), leadership (of some sort) and demand from developers. I'm sure interested parties will do something.Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves. Re:Official CVS (Score:1) by Yambert (yambert@jamisongold.com) on Wednesday December 22, @02:29AM EST (#271) (User Info) http://www.sourceforge.com might be a good place. Who wants to be the maintainer? Re:Official CVS (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:20AM EST (#343) I be a project manager. I don't know how to code, but some freinds told me that's not a prerequisite...:-) Re:Official CVS (Score:2) by spinkham on Wednesday December 22, @09:54AM EST (#378) (User Info) I have applied for a project at sourceforge. Should get comfirmation within 24 hours.. In lieu of coming up with a good name, I called it GNUquake. ;-) Clean Underwear (Score:2, Funny) by SPrintF (kmerris1@san.railroad.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:37PM EST (#45) (User Info) This is why it's so important to (1) indent properly, (2) use meaningful variable names, and (3) provide adequate comments. You never know when when your code will be GPL'd and then everyone will know what kind of programmer you really are!Evangelion keywords: NERV SEELE MARDUK AT FIELD LCL ADAM LILLITH Re:Clean Underwear (Score:1) by mohaine (graessle@SPAN_SUCKSemail.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:41PM EST (#126) (User Info) (1) indent properly Ever hear of cb? Never leave home without a good code beautifier, they even fix other people's code:) Re:Clean Underwear (Score:1) by TeddyR (syousif@iname.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:42PM EST (#130) (User Info) https://www.mav.net/teddyr/syousif/ Yup...Yup.... When I did a little programming at school, the profs always knew that the programs were really mine due to the "wierd" way and "interesting" choice for variable names and choice of comments.... [one time some yoyo decided to "borrow" one of my programs which was immediately spotted by the profs as such due to my "unique programming" methods...] http://www.alug.org/ Source Code (Score:1) by Quintin Stone (stone@NOSPAMrps.net) on Thursday December 23, @01:50PM EST (#475) (User Info) http://www.rps.net/QS With all due respect to Id, have you ever seen the source code for the Quake2 gamex86.dll? It's often messy, comments are sparse, and naming conventions are plainly up to each individual coder. Still, it was a learning experience. "You speak of necessary evil? One of those necessities is that if innocents must suffer, the guilty must suffer more." -- Mackenzie Calhoun Carmack, id and linux (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:37PM EST (#46) This really pisses me off. Carmack has been a very good friend to the open source/linux community and with doom and quake has been very generous. I like the idea that companies give their old code up for adoption to the community since it doesn't make them much money as it used to. But - to the point, remember the privacy problem about a month ago? Well, damn it. Privacy is not a fuzzy line so we have a right to be pissed when it is invaded - the old give an inch and a mile is taken problem. So, I wish id would either side with evil or be open with us about its plans because I like id and Carmack and hate to hate them. None of this half good, half bad stuff. Anyone feel the same? Re:Carmack, id and linux (Score:1) by ufdraco (DracoBenden@yahoo!.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:48PM EST (#63) (User Info) http://ufdraco.dhs.org/ Welcome to life. Good and bad come in equal measure, whether you like it or not.ufdraco Re:Carmack, id and linux (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:49PM EST (#65) Haha, someone PLEASE moderate this up. This is hilarious. Re:Carmack, id and linux (Score:1) by AndyL (Andrew_Lundell[at]Student.Uml.edu) on Tuesday December 21, @10:06PM EST (#96) (User Info) Didn't Quake1 also have a security back-door? I wonder if it's still in the source or if they took it out. Re:Carmack, id and linux (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @09:28AM EST (#369) Quote: But - to the point, remember the privacy problem about a month ago? Well, damn it. Privacy is not a fuzzy line so we have a right to be pissed when it is invaded IIRC, this was a slip by id. They were always going to inform us about this "feature", but somehow forgot to include it in the readme. I believe Carmack mentioned this in a post to this forum. I don't really understand what everyone gets so worked up over. Is this "problem" still in there in the full version? Do they fail to mention this anywhere in the documentation for the full version of Quake 3 Arena? If not, this matter should be put to sleep. It is old and frankly, I am more than a little tired of reading hysterical rants on the subject. Id forgot to mention this in *one* of the Q3Test releases. So: Knowing id, the problem is probably remedied by now, so get over it, please. Correct me if I'm wrong. Re:Carmack, id and linux (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @03:27PM EST (#438) The problem is easily remedied with one command in the autoexec (of course I cannot remember what it is now). And I *still* fail to see how grabing your type of video card is some sort of atrocity against humanity. Give them an inch when the inch is meaningless and boycott them whem they decide to take a mile. In this case the inch will probably help you in the long run since it will result in better drivers and performance. Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:3, Interesting) by Cycon on Tuesday December 21, @09:39PM EST (#51) (User Info) http://cogengine.linuxbox.com I see a lot of people already complaining that iD has only released Quake because it wasn't making them money anymore. I find such comments absolutely rude and uncalled-for, iD is doing the open source communitiy a wonderful favor by releasing their code under the GPL. Why don't we concentrate instead on the possibilities opened by this code release... Now that a fully 3-D rendering engine, which supports 3-D acceleration is available under the GPL, I can only hope that a few aspiring programmers can take all of that code and begin development on some true Virtual Reality software. With high speed access such as cable and dsl becoming available in more and more areas, such an environment is truly becoming feasible. The way that I see it, all that really needed is a large amount of artwork and new networking code. Imagine that each MetaQuake server is a node in the metaverse, each server acting as either a room, a building, or an entire city (based on available bandwidth), where people logged into one server can interact with one another directly, but you use a "subway" system to transfer your information *between* servers, allowing you to enter new buildings, cities, etc. If all of the servers were interconnected similar to the way the internet itself is connected, it could work. There could even be sub-programs written into the engine in which you can pick up a virtual pay phone, and video conference with someone on another server (or not logged in at all) via a direct connection. I think that the Quake codebase would certainly be an excellent start, but it's more likely that Quake2 or even Quake3 would act as a better environment to do such programming in. I know that Quake1 modules had to be written in "QuakeC" whereas Quake2 modules could be written in full-blown C, which in my opionion would be better suited to the "videophone applet" or other such modifications. Also, the original Quake networking code wasn't so hot (hence the need for QuakeWorld) whereas Quake2 was much better about it, and Quake3 was actually *designed* for online-only usage. Perhaps if a small band of programmers started messing around with this sort of stuff right now, we'd all be ready to take advantage of more advanced engines, such as the Quake2 and Quake3 engines one they become available (which they most likely will, the way that iD has been doing things -- Thanks guys!) Can anyone speak from experience if/how well models and skins, and/or maps created for Quake1 can be ported into Quake2 or Quake3? Is there anyway that level designs for a "metaverse" could be later re-used should iD be so gracious as to release the source to their more recent engines? --Steven M. Castellotti Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:1) by RodStewart (robswin[at]hempseed.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:49PM EST (#68) (User Info) http://www.phish.net hmmm. if you import the models you can, import the skins and animations. ive seen programs that make quake1 maps into quake2/quake3 maps. i think if in the future there is a quake3/4/5 etc. source release we could easily move right to that new source. the question is will people accept it. backwards compatibility is a big issue; i know die-hard quake1 players that wont touch quake3 because of the 'feel'. imagine getting everyone in the metaverse to change to the new quake3 engine, a much slower, albeit prettier engine. but damn even talking about these possibilities is exciting."Are you satisfied with fucking?" - Dave Matthews from "Halloween" Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:1) by epaulson (epaulson@nospam.upl.cs.wisc.edu) on Tuesday December 21, @09:55PM EST (#80) (User Info) http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~epaulson First off, there are plenty of other engines already availble under the GPL, many of which are far better than the Quake I engine. Every 3D programmer and their brother dreams of doing the Metaverse. But the Quake source is not the place to start out from. Large amount of artwork? Umm... (Score:1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:42PM EST (#128) "..all that really needed is a large amount of artwork.." Um, yeah. I'll get right on it. One thing Open Source advocates often forget about game code is that only the /code/ has been GPLed. Even if id also released the original Q1 art, by today's standards it is dated at best. The creation of "large amounts of artwork" (I just have to laugh every time I read that) is far from trivial. Artists like myself like to get paid for their efforts and don't like their work getting passed around, occasionally being "defiled" by some well meaning person with MS Paint (This happens more than you'd think). Even with extra time on their hands (something artists don't have much of), why would we want to do art for Q1? It's not exactly portfolio material and hardly advances the state of technology (the premise of Open Source, as I see it). Basically, there's not much in it for us. Helping with a Q3A total conversion or recent game add-on is much more fruitful. The investment of time and effort (time is money AND experience) could be better spent elsewhere. Until there's some kind of incentive, it's going to be very hard finding artists for this kind of project. It usually isn't wise to trivialize the art department (unfortunately something that feeds my stereotype of programmers not realizing how much work it really is), so just be aware. The pixel pushers are watching =) Re:Large amount of artwork? Umm... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:46PM EST (#134) One thing Open Source advocates often forget about game code is that only the /code/ has been GPLed Irrelevant. You can't create something that's half-free. It can't live that way. The GPL is designed to address this very issue. They should have used the LGPL if they want to be greedy bastards. But they didn't, so it's all open now. Re:Large amount of artwork? Umm... (Score:2) by WNight (wnight@rocketmail.com) on Wednesday December 22, @12:45AM EST (#238) (User Info) Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Id released their own code. As such, they aren't bound by the terms of the license, only the users are. This means that they could GPL every second line of the code, and release the rest under a look-but-don't-use license, and it wouldn't become GPL. Only things you linked to the GPLed bits would be GPL. Also, the GPL only applies to the application source. The levels, graphics, and sounds aren't included. They aren't needed to have the application. This is like GPLing a word processor and expecting that any documents produced with it would be GPLed. Re:Large amount of artwork? Umm... (Score:1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:13PM EST (#175) I know this will be moderated down (nice stratagy) but I gotta say the hell with you. I would like to work with this, and I know many others would like to as well. Many talented artist might like to do a little work in their free time, and for free. Also, this engine is not that useless. As someone else mentioned, half-life used it. With some important changes, it could be nice. 24/32 bit textures, and the fact that you aren't constrained with slow machines will make a world of difference. Of course, it still might die, even though it is good. Golgotha seems to have dies (www.golgotha.com), but maybe it was becuase it didn't come with an OGL renderer. Really, having nice looking display for developers might have kept them going. Anybody know what happened to it? OT: Golgotha project still alive (forever) (Score:1) by maynard (maynard@jmg.com) on Wednesday December 22, @12:02AM EST (#217) (User Info) telnet://dont.waste.your.time.wah "Golgotha seems to have dies (www.golgotha.com), but maybe it was becuase it didn't come with an OGL renderer." I'm not closely involved with the Golgotha team, but I've downloaded the source a couple of times and been impressed by what they've produced. I note that you point to the wrong URL for the primary Golgotha home page: http://golgotha.opengames.org I also note that they updated the news section of the homepage just a few days ago, Dec 16th, so the project still looks quite active. I'm sure it was just a simple mistake, but a check on freshmeat would have given you the link: here's the Freshmeat Golgotha appindex entry. I look forward to Golgotha's release eventual 1.0 release, and soon thereafter my enjoyment of the completed game. :-) Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. --Bertrand RussellJ. Maynard Gelinas Im sorry (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @03:34PM EST (#439) It was at golgotha.org, then it quited down. I am sure as hell happy they are still working on it though. Re:Large amount of artwork? Umm... (Score:2, Informative) by Cycon on Wednesday December 22, @12:39AM EST (#234) (User Info) http://cogengine.linuxbox.com The creation of "large amounts of artwork" (I just have to laugh every time I read that) is far from trivial. Artists like myself like to get paid for their efforts and don't like their work getting passed around, occasionally being "defiled" by some well meaning person with MS Paint (This happens more than you'd think). Even with extra time on their hands (something artists don't have much of), why would we want to do art for Q1? I understand and appriciate your point, but I do however feel that you are wrong. I would consider a project such as the Metaverse a non-trivial attempt at revolutionizing how people interact in an online environment, and that such at project would have to be largly fueled by the work of Open efforts on not only the software level, but the artistic as well. I am in no way attempting to trivialize work of artists, but I am suggesting that many artists would likely be interesting in participating in such a project, and for largely the same reasons - ego boost and sense of accomplishment. In order to get such a project off the ground, a near-trivial amount of artwork would have to be done, at least in the short term. In order to test the interaction between servers, one would merely need a simple player model w/skin, and a simple room with a few objects that can be interacted with. I could whip up the interior of my apartment with a Quake Level Editor in just a few hours, and I believe that there are many others that could do a far better job in far less time. The same goes for a simple player model and skin (and I mean *simple*) Once a working system could be implemented in which players can meet in one area, travel to other areas, communicate within and across areas, etc. the foundations would be laid for further progress. More attractive models, skins, areas/maps, interactive objects, and communications mechanisms could integrated and expanded upon. New users to the system would have to be outfitted with a default room, model, and skin, and I would imagine the artist responsible for those items would feel a certain sense of pride when seeing it used frequently. Also, home-made models, skins, and areas would offer other artists oppurtunities to flaunt their artistic skills. Of course, this is all merely my own opinions. (c: --Steven M. Castellotti Re:Large amount of artwork? Umm... (Score:2) by Wah (t h e w a h @ uswest . net) on Wednesday December 22, @12:39AM EST (#235) (User Info) http://wahcentral.net It usually isn't wise to trivialize the art department (unfortunately something that feeds my stereotype of programmers not realizing how much work it really is) I agree. I work with artists all the time. They know their G4s pretty damn well. I've seen some amazing stuff, but it does take a lot of work. What would interest artists in a GPL project? Does the credit and (hopefully) widespread distrubution interest you? You get to do whatever you want, basically. Do you guys do "art" in your spare time? (please, feel free to generalize for an entire profession ;) information wants to be free, and, yes, that does include all your personal info. Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:2, Informative) by Animats on Tuesday December 21, @10:50PM EST (#136) (User Info) There is a Metaverse: Active Worlds. It's a big VRML world; you can visit, buy property, build, hang out, shop, etc. It's been running since 1996. And nobody really cares. Interest in VRML peaked in 1997. Even though browsers now come with VRML plug-ins, many machines have 3D graphics boards, and enough people have the CPU power and net bandwidth to use it effectively, VRML is going nowhere. There's an attempt to resurrect VRML as Web3D, which is basically VRML97 represented in XML syntax. If you're really bored, you can try Excite's 3D shopping,a Web3D application. It's doing 3D rendering in Java, which is why it's so slow. We have the technology. But we don't have the killer app. Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:2, Insightful) by plunge (cosym@yahoo.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:52PM EST (#139) (User Info) http://cosym.net I doubt we'll see the Quake3 source for a long time to come. Skins are just maped pictures, models are just exported 3d ap output, as are maps, reptty much. But I should point out that while Quake was a great engine for its time, it's not as well suited to a "Metaverse" concept as some might think. The rendering eninge isn't tweaked for todays hardware, and has some serious limitations on what you can do in the BSP. Not to mention that it was built specifically to be a singleplayer/multiplayer fragfest, and isn't designed or optimized for less violent interaction. We've seen some Quake mods that tried this sort of interaction out.. but you know what? Fragging people with rocket launchers is alot more fun then having big, blocky, and relatively static (only simple animations are possbile) models get in the way of what is essentially an IRC chat. The real question is- why does anyone care about recreating the physical world? In the forseeable future, we'll can never get it quite right (and I'm sure newer commerical engines will always outstrip what anyone can do with Quake), so why try rehashing nature? Why not try to further develop the sorts of abstract communication/interaction models we're already working on, and leave quake to fragfest. Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:2) by Cycon on Wednesday December 22, @12:00AM EST (#216) (User Info) http://cogengine.linuxbox.com We've seen some Quake mods that tried this sort of interaction out.. but you know what? Fragging people with rocket launchers is alot more fun then having big, blocky, and relatively static (only simple animations are possbile) models get in the way of what is essentially an IRC chat. This is true, but I see the "metaverse" idea as an integration of current UI and communication technologies. Image that each new "user" of the system is given a home somewhere on the metaverse, which is hosted by their own machine (much like an X-Server) either on the net or not, depending on their need. The current "desktop" metaphor could be extended very simply in this way; you have a desk-object somewhere in your home, and when you walk over to it, you can sit down, and your screen pans down and is replaced by your standard GNOME (or whatever) desktop. The Metaverse engine is backgrounded and you use your comptuer as normal. Throw in some simple Instant-Messenging technology and a friend of yours who is online notices that you're on the net again. He takes the "subway" to your house and either knocks on the front door, or provides some sort of password and enters. His Metaverse "client" piece becomes a client of your server. Your desktop is minimized, and you can talk to him using lip-synced Speak Freely chat, by connecting to him directly. The key is that all of the high-end processing is managed on your end, so your home is as complex or as simple as your computer can handle. The only information going out across the net is the same as a standard quake server (actually less, since in this example moving rockets and other such objects do not have to be figured in) plus whatever communication software is running underneath it all. I am by no means saying that the Quake engine would be the optimal underpinnings for such a system, but merely that we seem to be moving in the direction in which it might be feasible. Assuming that the later Quake Engines are someday gpl'd as well, current models and maps could be imported later on. I don't know how large gatherings of people (say 50+) would be handled, though if a room/map is relatively simple, then the only thing that would need to be rendered is the actual models, and everything else could be handled by standard IRC protocol. We have MUDs that work in this way, why not use the Quake engine to bring graphics to those worlds? PS: I for one can recall quite a few IRC session in which I would have *loved* to have had a rocket launcher handy... (c: Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:2) by plunge (cosym@yahoo.com) on Wednesday December 22, @02:52AM EST (#277) (User Info) http://cosym.net But the question is still WHY. Why have a 3d representation of a 2d desktop? Why must my friend take the subway over to my house and knock on the door when he can be here instantly with chat/videophone/etc. Why does it have to be connected to a 3d world that only emulates the one we already have? 3d games like quake work because they're based on running around and killing each other- something we can all identify with. But when it comes to communication, we can handle much more abstract, and perhaps much faster and better methods than recreating the look of the "world" around us. It just seems redundant to have me sitting at my computer looking at a monitor display that shows me sitting at my computer looking at an IRC chat. Maybe someday in the future, we'll be able to eliminate the first step- the physical existence, but for now, let's cut out the poorly rendered 3d middleman. Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:1) by zmooc (zmooc@zmooc.net) on Wednesday December 22, @05:22AM EST (#297) (User Info) http://www.zmooc.net While it emulates the real world, people won't act the same as in the real world. They will break in in your house, you try to kill them with your gun, there's blood all over the floor, you have to get rid of the body. While taking the body over to some place to bury it, you will get captured by some terrorists. It's the live you always wanted to live, but you can't because in the real world everything is regulated by laws (which is fine :)). Offcourse since there will be people that will get annoyed by the way things go, laws will be created in the virtual world. Laws that can be enforced because the government will control the servers...blablabla Art rant again. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:45PM EST (#415) "Skins are just maped pictures, models are just exported 3d ap output, as are maps, reptty much." Dude. I said it before... DON'T TRIVIALIZE. The art trolls are getting angry. I know several people that would have you drawn and quartered for saying that (including me) =) That's like saying a drawing is just graphite scratched onto a piece of paper or a sculpture is just a mound of clay. When you generalize, you totally miss the point. I'm not actually sure what you said has to do with to seeing the Q3 source, but as a separate statement it ticks me off. In development time, art/content creation often happens to be 70% or more of the work... Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:4, Interesting) by ewhac on Tuesday December 21, @11:26PM EST (#194) (User Info) http://www.best.com/~ewhac/ Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? I don't think so, due to what I call the Database Problem (I'm sure there's a more formal name for it). Basically, for the Metaverse to work, you need a massive, distributed, dynamically load-balanced database. You need near-zero latency between servers to handle synchronization. You need to be able to have servers dynamically hand off clients to one another without the user being able to perceive it happening. You need to be able to support the one guy wandering off by him/herself in the "frontiers" of the metaverse. You need to be able to support the virtual stadium containing 100K independent spectators (plus the 30 or so guys playing Rocket Arena down on the field), and handle collisions and other object/object interactions between all of them ("Oh, no, Bob! A wild grenade just landed in the home field bleachers!" "That means a five point penalty, Dan..."). IMHO, this problem is insoluble with current technology. Those who point to Ultima Online et al don't realize that they're side-stepping the problem by keeping all the users and data on a given server. Users and objects cannot migrate between servers. To do even this much, you need heap big server iron, which UO has. But to do something the scale of the Metaverse, you can't get one server that's big enough; you must go to a dynamic distributed system. No one has solved this problem yet. I suspect advancing CPU and network technologies will eventually make this practical, but I believe we're still several years off... Schwab Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:2) by Cycon on Wednesday December 22, @12:22AM EST (#229) (User Info) http://cogengine.linuxbox.com Basically, for the Metaverse to work, you need a massive, distributed, dynamically load-balanced database. You need near-zero latency between servers to handle synchronization. You need to be able to have servers dynamically hand off clients to one another without the user being able to perceive it happening. You need to be able to support the one guy wandering off by him/herself in the "frontiers" of the metaverse. I may be over-simplifying things here, but I don't see why this should be such a problematic issue. (First of all please see this post for a few ideas as to how I would see something like this happening) If you considered every game of Quake2 being played right now that is registered with a site on GameSpy, you can see which players are on which server, which map is playing, who else is there, what the score is, etc. Why not throw in hooks for a GameSpy-like server for the Metaverse? That way, you could see where all of your friends are, and enter the server that corresponds to their location in the Metaverse. Quake servers already handle where players are in map coordinates, where they are moving, objects they are "manipulating", and especially, clipping between it all. Say you are using the McKinley Revival map from q2ctf as your building. I've played that map with over 30 players with no problems, and there's quite a bit of territory to it. You seem to be getting hung up on how to handle scenes like the end-sequence to Snow Crash in which there are 100k people in the same "area" all interacting at the same time. I agree with you that by today's technology that we couldn't handle anything like that, but by the same token, when was the last time you saw 100k people in the same ... say ... irc chat room? If you really wanted to have a "live" event such as the one in Snow Crash, why not have multiple servers running the same map, which is a stage arena, with a small area for seats. The "performers" pick whichever server they want, and all of the "mirror" servers merely have bots mimicking the same actions for you. In this case you simply remove the audience interaction and you're set. And as far as the lone person wandering by themselves in the "frontiers" of the metaverse you simply set up some rules in which the "subway" system will move you to a map with a repeating background and wrap-around coordinates (when you walk off one end, you end up at the opposite side, PacMan style). The key to tying the whole thing together is the "subway" system, in which the length of your "ride" is merely how long it takes you to log into a particular area's server, plus the time it takes you to download the area's map, if you don't have the most recent version. --Steven M. Castellotti Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:1) by Raphael (quinet@NOSPAM-gamers.org) on Wednesday December 22, @05:49AM EST (#301) (User Info) http://www.gamers.org/~quinet/ Basically, for the Metaverse to work, you need a massive, distributed, dynamically load-balanced database. You need near-zero latency between servers to handle synchronization. You need to be able to have servers dynamically hand off clients to one another without the user being able to perceive it happening. You need to be able to support the one guy wandering off by him/herself in the "frontiers" of the metaverse. I may be over-simplifying things here, but I don't see why this should be such a problematic issue. If you want to build a realistic universe, you need to provide a way for the players to move freely from one area to another without even noticing that the two areas of the universe are handled by different servers. You could of course include teleporters, subways, or special doors to move the player from one server to another (IIRC, that idea was mentioned by John Carmack and also by John Romero in the pre-Quake days). But that would not really give the feeling of a single large universe because switching from one server to another would still require a specific action. So the areas would only be semi-connected. Note that even this simple scheme contains some interesting problems: Server A must check that server B is on-line before attempting to transfer the player. Server B must be reacheable by server A but also by the user. Server A must also check that server B is ready to accept a new player. What if B is full? Will the player be stuck? Will a new server be spawned automatically? The transfer must be performed as an atomic operation, so that the player does not get lost or duplicated if there is a failure in one server, in the client or in the network. The transfer should also be performed in a somewhat secure way (depending on the application, you may want to prevent spoofing, replay attacks, etc.) The servers must trust each other to some extent, and maybe trust the client too (depending on the application). i.e. if you use the metaverse concept for a game, you do not want someone to insert a new server that will modify some players and send them back into the game with unfair advantages or disadvantages. But the real challenge is to implement a seamless world, in which people can move around as if everything was part of a single huge map. The players should not be able to see that they are moving to a different server. In addition to the problems mentioned above, you get a lot of problems in the "frontiers" of the metaverse, as mentioned by the original poster. For example, how will you be able to see an area that is handled by a different server than the one you are connected to? One solution would be to replicate (cache) the visible parts of the "foreign" areas on each server, but that would not work for players or any other moving objects. So the servers must exchange some informations whenever something changes near the frontiers. But there are some latency problems. If you are familiar with the QuakeWorld/QuakeII/QuakeIII problems regarding lag and movement prediction, you can imagine what will happen if more than one server is involved. Anyway, I have been playing around with these ideas for a while and I think that I have found some solutions for building a fully distributed world (taking input from Quake, CrossFire and my personal experience about building distributed and redundant systems). Maybe I will write them down someday, and maybe even build a library that implements the necessary network protocols. Maybe... -Raphael Warning: Abject Linux/GL/VR waffle follows (Score:2) by PhiRatE on Wednesday December 22, @12:51AM EST (#242) (User Info) For many years, in fact ever since I installed amitcp and learned how to Goraud-shade on my lil ol Amiga, I've been working on various implementations and designs for useful 3D interaction. There are a number of people working on projects related to these goals, a short search of freshmeat will reveal a good percentage of them. I have my own code, and I'm sure a fair number of programmers out there have code on this particular ideal at one stage or another. From all this time, heres some insights I'd like to share: 1. OpenGL. Bloody genius. Made my life a hell of a lot easier. Trying to work out complex network protocols as well as keep up with the latest high-speed rendering techniques and maintaining some semblence of cross-platform code was impossible. 2. Linux. While I'm sure many won't agree, and they're welcome to their opinion, the sheer accessibility of Linux' networking and system functions has made things a lot easier. gcc and Mesa don't hurt :) 3. Libraries. Lots of them have been useful at one point or another in my planning, specifically Mesa and linuxthreads, and less specifically all the people (Including the GNU guys and various universities) writing embedded language libs (see below) We are out of the chaos of bandwidth limitations and CPU limitations that hampered me when I first tried this kind of thing. It wasn't possible to draw much more than 30 triangles/sec without using assembler, and only the very best of the demo scene were doing anything decent in 3D. Now days 20 lines of C will get you a fully lighted, spinning cube with textures, in realtime, and not a hell of a lot more will get you a landscape engine, a model loader and some physics. Bandwidth as well, is not as bad is as maintained. You don't need the kind of bandwidth necessary to keep every object and every user in sync, even in big-visibility situations. The simple rule is to only have to sync those items controlled by a human, we're the only unpredictable ones. The inclusion of embedded languages allows every object, even those appearing to behave in a random fashion, to be deterministic. At this point, we have the CPU to manage such interactions and processing, and we have more than enough bandwidth available to maintain the state of all the humans, even in a fairly busy scene. Obviously I'm glossing over some details, latency being the biggy, and if I knew how to solve 'em all I'd be busy writing the damn thing, but I think that the point is more not whether its possible, but what the hell are we to do with it should we make it? As many have pointed out, and I agree, creating 3D chat is worthless. IRC is a far more effective medium for such things, and without VR headgear and voice transmission, the 3D would just get in the way. On the other hand, 3D collaborative environments are already here, at the high end with people like SGI etc. They've found good uses for them, collaborative visual design etc, and such things could scale down nicely into internet applications. The one closest to my heart is mapping systems to visual entities, essentially expert-system style bots that control networking and monitoring on machines on a network. Here the bandwidth and latency issues disappear (100mbs is pretty common) and the visual mapping is effective (a single-glance can convey the status of the network). There are many other similar concepts which certainly deserve investigation, so I say unto you programmers out there, busy conjouring up RPG worlds the net can access: "Not yet. But that don't mean there aint some good stuff to do". And to those who haven't tried it yet, get your teeth into OpenGL, it rocks. Tools I believe we need before an Open Source effort can be truely effective: 1. A good, open source, 3d modeller. I love AC3D (http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/computing/users/andy/ac3d.html) but it isn't open-source and I can't add stuff to output to formats I need or new features (script attachment, physics definitions etc) 2. A platform independant, embeddable, extensible, interpreted language with a bytecode compiler for size, a good method of removing all filesystem/memory access components, regex, and a fast executor. Guile (http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/guile.html) is good, but it doesn't do all of that. 3. An effective, fast, secure, broadcast-capable combination packet/stream networking library with priority (send this msg NOW, send this message when the queue is clear, this message MUST arrive this message doesn't have to). Should be a fairly easy build on top of udp (with tcp possibly for reliable messages) and a bit of encryption. If anyone knows any good implementations of solutions to the above, I'd love to hear it :) I've got a lot more to say but I'm far enough off topic as it is, and a long dissertion on expert-system AI would not really be appropriate. [Social evolution through the extrapolation of the obvious applied to the new] Re:Warning: Abject Linux/GL/VR waffle follows (Score:1) by andi75 on Wednesday December 22, @06:02AM EST (#303) (User Info) http://www.ards.net/Andreas > 1. A good, open source, 3d modeller. I love AC3D (http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/computing/users/andy/ac3d.html) but it isn't > open-source and I can't add stuff to output to formats I need or new features (script attachment, physics definitions etc) There is a project called 'PrettyPoly' doing exactly that for the exact same reasons: http://prettypoly.sourceforge.net/ Re:Warning: Abject Linux/GL/VR waffle follows (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:32AM EST (#349) There's another one called Blender. It's not open source, but there are plugins available that folks are writing for it that allow for quite a bit of customization. Might do good until a decent O/S modeller comes out. Re:Warning: Abject Linux/GL/VR waffle follows (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:25PM EST (#460) 1. A good, open source, 3d modeller. I love AC3D (http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/computing/users/andy/ac3d.html) but it isn't open-source and I can't add stuff to output to formats I need or new features (script attachment, physics definitions etc) Considered Blender? (http://www.blender.nl/) No, it's not open source, but it can export to DXF and WRL and Videoscape, and with a 100 license it can do scripting with python. Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:1) by mxs (mxs2099@hotmail.com) on Wednesday December 22, @06:06AM EST (#305) (User Info) I don't think so, due to what I call the Database Problem (I'm sure there's a more formal name for it). [...] I suspect advancing CPU and network technologies will eventually make this practical, but I believe we're still Hmm ? I wouldn´t quite state it that way. The CPU and networking ARE in fact fast enough ... There ARE approaches to distributed databases. And the databases don´t even need to be quite that huge ... Of course, they´d probably have to store what map/server a user is in/on, but that´s one line. Any decent SQL server could save that data. Sure, there would need to be one of those fat-ass servers (or a cluster or a distributed DB), but that should be accomplishable given that you always find sponsors for interesting problems (witness distributed.net). The servers holding the maps themselves won´t need that much information. Maybe some adjacent map-pointers to go to if you enter this or that door. The 'subway' system would take care of the rest (subway = just pass user credentials along to another server/process). There´s been a lot of research into this already and also some products which implement some kind of it (http://www.activeworlds.com). One could also play with dynamic maps for the frontier maps. If it´s a frontier and there is nothing notable in it, well, generate a seed for it and let the client create a huge map for it (yes, I know making .bsp´s will take some time, but hey, it´s possible, isn´t it ? Tricks.) unique to that seed on every client. The server doesn´t need to get too much information, as long as no change to the environment is made or another person enters the scene. Then we have to 'localize' the map to the point of interaction and get back to 'normal' network traffic again. Difficult but feasible. Dynamic distributed systems are possible. As a matter of fact, you´re using one right now. What else is the internet ? -- mxs Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:2) by ralphclark (ralph_clark (at) bigfoot (dot) com) on Wednesday December 22, @04:07PM EST (#442) (User Info) I'm not an expert in VR simulation technology but since the sort of implementation we're discussing is still some way off, I doubt it matters very much. anyway, it seems to me that some parts of your argument are somewhat misdirected. You need near-zero latency between servers to handle synchronization. This is undoubtedly true, since predictive methods will not be very accurate when dealing with humans in a more or less unrestricted situation. You need to be able to have servers dynamically hand off clients to one another without the user being able to perceive it happening. It'd be nice but it's hardly necessary. You could have quite a fulfilling time in an extended VR world even without having the option of walking everywhere. It seems unlikely to me that this would be allowed to hold up development. Instead, visitors will put up with virtual subway and elevator rides between locations which stand in for a "windows hourglass" during transit. You need to be able to support the one guy wandering off by him/herself in the "frontiers" of the metaverse. I don't see any problem there as long as the relevant server is up. The load on the server ought to comparatively low when minimal when serving just one user, so infrequently visited locations could be hosted on small machines or a number of them could share a single server. You need to be able to support the virtual stadium containing 100K independent spectators... This is interesting. Actually I don't think it will present a huge problem because a member of the audience can only interact fully with his immediate neighbours, can only observe or signal to the next distant ones, and can only observe more distant ones at comparatively low resolution. People on the other side of the stadium won't amount to much more than a colored dot. Also, interactions in such a setting are fairly limited. So, each visitor's environment only contains full information about a handful of neighbours and much less rich data about people further away. The total amount of interaction going on could be less than with say 20 people in a room having a party with conversations, subtle body language etc. If someone sitting three rows behind you recognises your avatar and calls out to you, the system detects this and upgrades your representations in each other's sensoria while communication takes place. ...(plus the 30 or so guys playing Rocket Arena down on the field), and handle collisions and other object/object interactions between all of them Well, that's just another game of Quake. I believe they already have that working :o) Consciousness is not what it thinks it is Thought exists only as an abstraction The self does not exist Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:3, Funny) by cancrman (cancrman@hotmail.com) on Wednesday December 22, @12:05AM EST (#219) (User Info) Sorry for the inane response, but this is the coolist post that I've seen on /. for a long time. Yes I have been drinking. The Internet's sole purpose is to get porn and bomb making plans into the hands of children What use is the Metaverse? (Score:2) by Anonymous Shepherd (louisjr@cco.caltech.edu) on Wednesday December 22, @12:23AM EST (#230) (User Info) http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~louisjr Or is this something specific I just haven't read/seen/grokked? In terms of recreating reality, I'd much rather go through reality; learning how to fletch, rock climb, rollerblade, make swords, etc, than have an avatar do so. If the metaverse is about doing the impossible, then it isn't much more than a more advanced blending of video games, RPGs, and movies, I think. Life is hard enough, without retreating into an alternate reality to escape our own when our own is already so rich, so beautiful, so powerful. Perhaps I'm just missing the point? -AS *Pikachu* Re:What use is the Metaverse? (Score:2) by Cycon on Wednesday December 22, @12:52AM EST (#243) (User Info) http://cogengine.linuxbox.com If the metaverse is about doing the impossible, then it isn't much more than a more advanced blending of video games, RPGs, and movies, I think. Life is hard enough, without retreating into an alternate reality to escape our own when our own is already so rich, so beautiful, so powerful. This is true, and an important point, but the Metaverse metaphor allows more important things than an escape from reality. The Metaverse would allow people all over the planet to communicate in realtime in as close to a "real" environement as possible. This is especially important to people who couldn't do so otherwise. How many natural resources (not to mention economic ones) are wasted in flying/bringing together a group of people together for a meeting in the real world? With a tool such as the metaverse, people could comunicate in a visual and physical manner without wasting valuable resources. Granted that nothing will ever replace physical meetings between individuals, sometimes such meetings are either impossible or at least impractical. So the Metaverse concept could be a useful tool for communication and collaboration between people at great distances. Also, while it is very nice that you would prefer to go through reality and practice rock climbing and rollerblading, if you were physically disables you could do no neither (in many instances). If I was in such a situation I would certainly enjoy being able to at least simulate such an experience! I agree with you that nothing can substitute for a real-life experience, but as for myself, the idea of experiencing things such as 800 mile-an-hour motorcycle races with danger of injury and virutal combat without actually injuring anyone or thing is rather appealing. I would consider any technology that could satisfy man's demonstrable thrist for violence and conflict without actually entailing such negative reprocussions would be a Good Thing(tm) Cheers, --Steven M. Castellotti Re:What use is the Metaverse? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @10:56AM EST (#397) Along the lines of "where can a 3D world take us".. I'm a hardware/software engineer; let me throw out a couple ideas of what is currently possible. It's possible to mount emitters on key parts of someone's body (arms, hands, head, torso) and to connect detectors to a computer port; USB for example. Suddenly you have a body-movement tracking system with a USB driver which a person wears. In GNUQuake, this could be used to emote. It's possible to use detectors for eye tracking. This allows for a virtual world character to direct their gaze at something. In person-to-person communication, the eyes account for a large part of emoting. Several months ago, there was a press release about a device "to be released within one year" which could create SCENTS. Suddenly you can smell the world in a limited fashion. (This would add a LOT to the environment; fog, rain, dust, aromatherapy..) Hook this up, also via USB, with GNUQuake using the driver, and ta-da. Within one year, a huge portion of the U.S. will be connected via DSL or cablemodem (say, 20-30%!!). This will allow "telephone calls via the network" -- ie, a voice communications. GNUQuake could use the sound card's microphone and "IP Telephony" drivers for speech communication. Instead of typing, there's the option of just talking and listening. The internet is still growing beyond all believable bounds; this represents informational content which is becoming more difficult to navigate through. Everyone here knows OOP! There is a huge need to encapsulate sources of information into objects! And if they are objects, they are easier to manipulate in more than one or two dimentions; now GNUQuake gives us a pseudo-four dimensional world, 3D plus teleportation. Why would you want to do such a thing? Because the Real World -- not the geek world everyone here is part of -- functions on interpersonal relationships. Managers must still physically walk the aisles to check into everyone's cubicle. Managers must physically fly to customers in order to finalize designs because it is necessary to "see the customer's site" and to "see how they are working". enough for now.. Re:What use is the Metaverse? (Score:2) by Anonymous Shepherd (louisjr@cco.caltech.edu) on Thursday December 23, @05:57PM EST (#481) (User Info) http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~louisjr The Metaverse is not necessary for group meetings; I hope you realize this? At worst VR goggles, sound stages, and arrays of video cameras can do this today. At best you'd use digital whiteboards, teleconferencing systems, videophone solutions, and connected PCs. -AS *Pikachu* Do you enjoy books, movies, and other art forms? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:56PM EST (#430) The metaverse/virtual reality is about communication and about artistic expression. I think all of us enjoy reading books and viewing great art. These are forms of alternate reality as well. There are limitations to what an artist can create with words, paint, film, or any other media. The potential of virtual reality is in removing these limitations, at least some of them. Ok, just kidding. The truth is that all of us here on Slashdot are too obsessed with our computers to actually enjoy doing anything unrelated to them. Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:1) by Petor (vanhardenberg@big(schmig)foot.com) on Wednesday December 22, @03:19AM EST (#282) (User Info) http://members.home.com/pvh/ CrystalSpace is a cross-platform, open-source 3d engine under the leadership of Jorrit Tyberghein. The NetSpace project which is building on this engine is working towards the very goal described there. Interested parties are welcome to join the mailing lists, for either the main engine, or NetSpace. Missed URLS: (Score:1) by Petor (vanhardenberg@big(schmig)foot.com) on Wednesday December 22, @03:20AM EST (#283) (User Info) http://members.home.com/pvh/ CrystalSpace is: crystal.linuxgames.com NetSpace is: ns.weblink.org Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:1) by deefer (deefer@[Spam:_Just_Say_No]dial.pipex.com) on Wednesday December 22, @03:38AM EST (#286) (User Info) http://www.deefer.dial.pipex.com few aspiring programmers can take all of that code and begin development on some true Virtual Reality software Try Crystal SpaceStrong data typing is for those with weak minds. Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:1) by Is0t0pe (replace() on Wednesday December 22, @04:09AM EST (#291) (User Info) If we think of this in terms of a paradigm shift from 2D GUI (a la KDE/GNOME) to a 3D one, this concept becomes much more feasible. Replace the current file system explorer with a map within the 3D space, replace the GTK+ with an entity toolkit for creating app interfaces in the 3D space, replace desktop shortcuts with an "inventory", create application interfaces that are accessible within the 3D space (inventory shortcuts and object in rooms (aka folders)), stir mix and enjoy. Imagine a telnet application like this- select it from your inventory; a console of sorts popups in your HUD (heads up display) with fields for hostname/IP addy, password, etc.; click the connect button and the console drops out and a portal appears before you; walk through and you are in the 3D space of a remote machine. The only real things on the internet are files, connections, and processes- representing these in a 3D space is not only possible, but realistic. Detractors of this concept will have similar arguments as the GUIs-suck-command-line-rules crowd. Once we make it possible to interact with computers in a 3D space we will see the same explosion in usability (and coolness) that we saw with the genesis of the 2D GUI. Is this a cool time to be alive or what? "My works are like water. The works of the great masters is like wine, but everybody drinks water." --Mark Twain Re:Is the Metaverse nearing practicality? (Score:1) by Defiler on Wednesday December 22, @08:32AM EST (#350) (User Info) The problem with your concept is this: Our interface to our computers is, at best, 2D.. Keyboards input 1-dimensional data, and mice do 2D.. How would selecting a telnet client from my "inventory" be easier than merely clicking on it? The 2D GUI exploded because it allowed people to avoid learning complex syntax and rules.. Moving to a 3D GUI is not the same kind of leap.. It's just 2D that requires more complex interaction. If you need a network monitor that uses a 3D metaphor, why not just pop one up in a window? Other possible uses (Score:1) by dsplat on Tuesday December 21, @09:45PM EST (#56) (User Info) I have been thinking for some time how cool it would be to have educational games for Linux for my kids. Hey, there's no reason it has to be boring for adults to be educational for the kids. I wonder how hard it would be to tailor this code to a use like that. There's only two things stopping me: I am way over-booked, and as an artist, I make a very good programmer. In other words, I can usually draw a line. The only upside is that I know where I can find beta-testers. Sourceforge (Score:1) by FORTYoz (davidr@linux.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:47PM EST (#61) (User Info) http://www.fortyoz.org Sourceforge would be a great place to host a big quake coding project, free web/ftp/cvs/email-lists and more. Its cool :) Quick economic analysis (Score:1) by swerdloff on Tuesday December 21, @09:49PM EST (#64) (User Info) http://www.swerdloff.com Formerly proprietary good, now free. Benefits to ID: 1) Train new 3d-game developers on their code 2) Reap PR benefits of joining the Open Source movement 3) Savings from attempting to protect their rights in their code. Liabilities to ID: 1) Lowers startup cost for interested outside parties. -Swerdloff (dot com) Re:Quick economic analysis (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:56AM EST (#244) > Liabilities to ID: > 1) Lowers startup cost for interested outside parties. Not a liability. They would *want* potential competitors to waste their time trying to improve the outdated Quake I engine to modern standards... So what... we need to waste MORE time (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:51PM EST (#71) Who cares about being able to kill processes in doom. What about having the entire UI in the quake engine. You could control some character (with any skin) in a map that represented your computer. Special parts of the map could be made so you could hunt down processes and run application. There could be a control room for all of the configuration thingies. Using the command line would be easy, just hit "~." With this kind of system you could connect remotely to a computer and take care of any administrative deeds. Of course if there were other users on the server you could fight it out. Connecting to quake(world) servers on the net would be easy. Just go into the internet-playing room and go through the door to you favorite server. Then again, such a WM would just be a time sink. Wonder what this does (Score:1) by The_Jazzman (t@cx) on Tuesday December 21, @09:53PM EST (#76) (User Info) http://www.atari.co.uk In quakedef.h : // This makes anyone on id's net privileged // Use for multiplayer testing only - VERY dangerous!!! // #define IDGODS Hmm... sounds interesting to me... Re:Wonder what this does (Score:1) by RodStewart (robswin[at]hempseed.com) on Tuesday December 21, @09:57PM EST (#81) (User Info) http://www.phish.net this has already been discussed on quake newsgroups. it gave them rcon access to servers, but was removed when people started spoofing the id subdomain. yes it is a bit of a invasion of privacy but there has been a fix for awhile."Are you satisfied with fucking?" - Dave Matthews from "Halloween" Re:Wonder what this does (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:36PM EST (#117) I used to freak the sh1t out of server admins with that. hehe. Re:Wonder what this does (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:44PM EST (#133) Could you explain to me quite how, if the source code has only just be realised... Re:Wonder what this does (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:14PM EST (#178) The source came out about 3 years ago when Crack.com got 0wn3D by some script kiddies. This is just the first LEGAL source release of q1. NEWS: Richard Stallman Missing (Score:3, Funny) by cje (engebret@splitrocktel.net) on Tuesday December 21, @09:53PM EST (#77) (User Info) http://kestrel.cso.uiuc.edu/~cje RICHARD STALLMAN IS MISSING Open Source Superstar "Nowhere To Be Found," Report Police CAMBRIDGE, MA (AP) - Richard M. Stallman, better known as "RMS" by the open source software (OSS) community, has apparently vanished off the face of the planet. After missing several speaking appointments and coding commitments, many of his fans have begun to ask questions about his whereabouts. Stallman is the founder of the GNU project, which is dedicated to providing free, open source software to the computing world. Eunice Bleyfeld, Stallman's neighbor, seemed surprised by Stallman's absence. "I hadn't noticed anything out of the ordinary," she commented to the Associated Press. "He wasn't acting strangely or anything like that the last time that I saw him." However, Mrs. Bleyfeld recounted a strange incident that took place in the middle of the night a few days ago. "I woke up and heard what sounded like an altercation at Mr. Stallman's," she said. "He shouted something like 'I'll frag your ass.' Minutes later, I heard him yell something to the effect of 'Eat my pineapple, bitch!'" Police psychologists were puzzled by Stallman's alleged ravings. In the meantime, Stallman's apartment door remains locked and phone calls are greeted with a constant busy signal. "We think the phone must have gotten knocked off the hook," explained Cambridge police chief Samuel Breckenridge. "That explains the busy signals. Beyond that, we're not quite sure what to do," continued Breckenridge. "The guy is quite literally nowhere to be found. We're sure that he's not at home, because if he was, you'd think that he would answer the door." Police have placed Stallman's picture on the side of cartons of CD-Rs and DIMMs nationwide, along with the caption "Have You Seen This Coder?" The hope is that somebody will recognize the missing open source icon and report a sighting to the authorities. Stallman is famous for his refusal to use anything except free software. In particular, Stallman is a fan of his GPL license, which provides for unrestricted modification and distribution of software. John Carmack contributed to this story. Re:NEWS: Richard Stallman Missing (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:01PM EST (#88) last i heard, he was riding esr around like a greased pig in the basement where the bazaar was held. thank you. Re:NEWS: Richard Stallman Missing (Score:1) by Zico (ZicoKnows@hotmail.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:04PM EST (#93) (User Info) He's probably busy counting all the money he didn't make during all the GNU/Linux IPOs. ;-) Cheers,ZicoKnows@hotmail.com Re:NEWS: Richard Stallman Missing (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:56AM EST (#245) yeah, but we all know he's agod. Just look, about 25% of code on most linux distro cds are GNU and the famed linux kernel, about 4%... he'll get his!! Re:NEWS: Richard Stallman Missing (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @07:06AM EST (#317) Just because the code is GPL'd doesn't mean the the FSF wrote it. Glory hogs. Re:NEWS: Richard Stallman Missing (Score:1) by Cecil (cecil@cgocable.yumcannedmeat.net) on Wednesday December 22, @01:23PM EST (#424) (User Info) http://www.niagara.com/~cecil He said GNU software, not GPL'd software. GNU software is in fact made by the FSF. It is all (AFAIK) GPL'd, naturally. But there are other, non-GNU programs that are GPL'd too. Just because they are doesn't mean the FSF owns them nor does it mean the FSF claims to own them. GNU software != GPL software. Sometimes, but not always. Besides, when you create 25% of the software in most Linux distributions and most of those are really basic, core files (like say, grep), you have a right to be glory-hogs. They do not claim to own anything that's released under GPL, get your story straight. Re:NEWS: Richard Stallman Missing (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:32PM EST (#426) Besides, when you create 25% of the software in most Linux distributions and most of those are really basic, core files (like say, grep), you have a right to be glory-hogs. The only thing that matters is gcc. BSD provides free alternatives to all the other software that's FSF-proprietary. And gcc isn't enough to insult the world of hackers like this. Every time I hear Stallman say the G word, I want to spit in his face for being a two faced bastard. He spent years bitching as BSD about their demand for credit. Now we does the same fucking thing, but worse. He doesn't just want it into the advertising. He wants himself in the whole damned name! What a miserably greedy hypocrite! That's why he's a glory hound. Re:NEWS: Richard Stallman Missing (Score:2) by cpuffer_hammer (cpuffer@hammer.com) on Wednesday December 22, @08:17AM EST (#342) (User Info) http://www.shore.net/~cpuffer I would think a little Quake might be just what he the thing. Now that Quake is GPL RMS can play. http://www.netaxs.com/~esr/geeks-with-guns/rms-eat-lead-software-hoarders.jpeg After all would you want to be dealing with this in a dark CVS tree? In Service Charles Puffer Re:NEWS: Richard Stallman Missing (Score:2) by cpuffer_hammer (cpuffer@hammer.com) on Wednesday December 22, @08:34AM EST (#351) (User Info) http://www.shore.net/~cpuffer more pics and the story they came from. http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson/als98 Re:Begging for Karma. (Score:1) by deefer (deefer@[Spam:_Just_Say_No]dial.pipex.com) on Wednesday December 22, @03:52AM EST (#287) (User Info) http://www.deefer.dial.pipex.com You silly arse. Go look up the definition of "humour". Strong data typing is for those with weak minds. QuakeWorld for Irix? (Score:1) by Chris Frost (cfrost@hiwaay.net) on Tuesday December 21, @09:54PM EST (#78) (User Info) http://home.hiwaay.net/~cfrost/ Hopefully some[one|people] will have a chance to port quakeworld to irix now . . . Of course, what I'd really like is a release of Q3 for Irix, but you can't be picky. Santa Carmack (Score:5, Funny) by nathanh on Tuesday December 21, @09:58PM EST (#83) (User Info) http://www.chirp.com.au/ You better make gibs, you better get frags You better shoot grunts, zombies and scrags Santa Carmack G-P... L'd Quake He's written some code, debugged it all twice Then made it all free, isn't that nice Santa Carmack G-P... L'd Quake He knows when you've been fragging He knows when you've got quad He knows when you've just rocket jumped 'Cause Carmack is Quake God So don't you be lame, don't you not play Join a net game, I'll frag you today Santa Carmack G-P... L'd Quake ahh but what about crack dot com? (Score:2) by SEAL on Wednesday December 22, @05:36AM EST (#299) (User Info) They were the real Santa Claus as I recall. I made a quick scan of the article headers and I don't see any mention of them. Back when Quake was new, crack dot com had the source on one of their servers. Someone happened to lift it from them. Would Carmack still be giving us this official source release today, if that event had never taken place? He seems like the type who would, but you have to wonder if this subject ever came over at id, before releasing this. Best regards, SEAL Re:ahh but what about crack dot com? (Score:2) by Cironian (m.rating@tu-harburg.de) on Wednesday December 22, @06:11AM EST (#306) (User Info) http://uox.stratics.com Well, there is still a significant different between an illegal copy of the sources appearing on some FTP servers and an official, free for everyone, GPL release... For example to a games developer the warezed version (I think that the right term here) would only be good to take a quick look at and see how a certain thing was done while now you can really do anything you want with it. With this legit version id are giving something away that they charged about 1M not too long ago. Good karma for them and I again feel nice about buying Quake 3 instead of getting it in some illegal way. Wolf3D, Doom ... (Score:1) by justin_saunders on Wednesday December 22, @07:42AM EST (#328) (User Info) http://www.ninjatek.com Have both been "officially" released by Carmack. Also, he mentioned about 12 months ago in a .plan file that he'd be releasing the Quake source. So yeah, I think he would have done it anyway :) Cheers, j. Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things Re:ahh but what about crack dot com? (Score:2) by Hard_Code on Wednesday December 22, @12:46PM EST (#417) (User Info) Well, they released wolf3d and doom. In another 2 or three years, maybe it will be quake 2 89 Jazilla.org - the Java Mozilla Attn spammers Re:ahh but what about crack dot com? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @05:51PM EST (#453) I had come across that code, but it was missing lots of stuff like GL, and QW. It would only compile under linux and was only version 1.01. So it was rather useless, but it was a nice read. Cheers... [OT: email address request] Re:Santa Carmack (Score:1) by Convergence (convergence@hypercube.res.cmu.edu) on Wednesday December 22, @06:45AM EST (#308) (User Info) Awesome! I want to use this in my signature or save it for use as a quote. I suspect that I am not the only one. :) So, to give accurate attributation for it, I would like your name or email address. Or is it OK for me to just leave it unattributated. Thanks.Convergence Re:Santa Carmack (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @07:00AM EST (#315) Thank you I was reading /. at work and everyone looked at me funny when I started giggling at my screen... Did you just make that up? (Score:1) by justin_saunders on Wednesday December 22, @07:46AM EST (#330) (User Info) http://www.ninjatek.com Excellent work. You've obviously been listening to waaaaay too many Xmas carols :) Will someone forward this to Blues or Stomped? cheers, j.Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things GNU/Quake (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @09:59PM EST (#84) Shouldn't that be called GNU/Quake? :) GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:1) by Tom7 (spam-sucks) on Tuesday December 21, @09:59PM EST (#85) (User Info) http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~twm/ Does it bother anyone else to see GPL used as a sort of "Goodwill" for software? We also saw this recently with the GPL release of a pretty old version of mySQL. Don't get me wrong -- it is awesome to have Quake (probably my favorite computer game ever) available in source form. And at least the 'commercial for three years, then GPL' plan has a shorter lifespan than a software patent. But it would be nice to see some commitment (from more than one company) on more current projects. I don't think this is really the point of the GPL. Re:GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:37PM EST (#121) You boner, these companies can't make any money off of the GPL, therefore any software released under the GPL is goodwill. Dumbass. Re:GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @07:12AM EST (#319) Huh? Re:GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:1) by mcrandello (mcrandello@my-deja.com) on Wednesday December 22, @08:43AM EST (#356) (User Info) http://www.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=mcrandello I think what he is trying to say is that if Q3a were released GPL today, it would take roughly 5 seconds before the source and recompiled binaries were available from just about anyone under 25 with a dsl or better conenction. They (Id) would be lucky to sell 5% of what they can by keeping it closed source. Your next door neighbor would be able to give you Q3a in exchange for 2 blank CD's. It'd be great, until ID closes shop and there are no more Quakes. Maybe I'm wrong on all this, but your average 14-15 year old isn't going to waste time saving money for something that their freinds are all passing around for gratis. mcrandello@my-deja.com rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important. Re:GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:1) by Baddog on Wednesday December 22, @08:56AM EST (#361) (User Info) How is this different than distributing pirated versions of closed-source commercial software? GPL software doesn't mean non-commercial. If Q3A were released GPL today, you would see basically NO change from what happens already. Most people buy the software, and those that don't, get a pirated copy. Software piraters are not going to go to the trouble of recompiling the distribution when ISO images already exist for the taking. The only thing releasing Q3A as GPL would do is make the source available for public review, and possible inclusion in other producs, which is a Good Thing (tm). Re:GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @09:12AM EST (#364) GPL software doesn't mean non-commercial. Sophistry. Pure sophistry. Re:GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:1) by mcrandello (mcrandello@my-deja.com) on Wednesday December 22, @12:47PM EST (#418) (User Info) http://www.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=mcrandello OK, I stand corrected there. I just can't help but thenk that since the GPL somewhat legitimizes free distrobution then a lot of people would feel less guilty about getting Joe-Bob's copy, also (to a lesser extent I suppose) that folks wouldn't have to worry about being turned in and whatnot (don't try asking about a 'free'copy of Quake2 in Alt.games.quake2 without expecting your message to be forwarded to the SPA, people there just don't find piracy funny.) mcrandello@my-deja.com rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important. Re:GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:1) by BinxBolling on Wednesday December 22, @09:41AM EST (#372) (User Info) Maybe I'm wrong on all this, but your average 14-15 year old isn't going to waste time saving money for something that their freinds are all passing around for gratis. This depends heavily on exactly what is GPL'd. If it's the whole deal (code, wads, and anything else), then you're correct. But if only source code is GPL'd, it won't do much good for those average 14-15 year olds you're thinking of: they need the wads as well for a playable game. The other reason to keep the engine source closed, is to avoid helping out possible competitors. If id GPL'd the engine source a couple of years ago, someone could easily take it, put together their own set of (closed) wads, and sell the result, in direct competition with one of id's games. But IIRC, Carmack himself pointed out in a recent interview that engine coding skills are becoming irrelevant, thanks to the widespread availability of inexpensive 3D accelerator cards. So GPLing your engine source isn't going to help out your competitors too much. Re:GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @11:47AM EST (#406) Exactly -- I've worked on game engines before, and I can tell you that 90% of the battle is content, not engine. How many times does 3D engine code have to be rewritten, when we could all be working together to get a really good engine? An OSS game engine would also help us get better hardware support, since hardware developers could write patches directly. Yes, I know that this is not an "obvious" business tactic. It would be if people changed the way they think. Re:GPL == Obsolescent Software Repository? (Score:1) by Anonynous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @07:26AM EST (#324) (User Info) If you want a GPL 3D Engine... Write one. There are actually already GPLed 3D engines more advanced than Quake1, such as Crystal Space. You just never hear about them...Which is currently the biggest problem with OSS...Its all too easy for good projects to get lost in all the noise. This should be the basis of an ad campaign (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:00PM EST (#86) Open Sores: Bringing the obsolete to your desktop today! GPL'ing the source code is great but... (Score:1, Insightful) by Smeg}{ead on Tuesday December 21, @10:02PM EST (#89) (User Info) ...putting out the design documentation would be even better :) As someone who's spent quite a bit of time trying to extend an open source project with little or no docs, I can attest to the fact that availablity of the source code is only half the problem - understanding it is the other half. With a system so complex and presumably huge as Quake, knowing where to start is going to be quite a challenge (and I don't mean at main(argc, argv)!) A little background knowledge would go a VERY long way - how about it JC? huge props to id though - leading the industry by example once again. Opportunity knocks (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:32PM EST (#113) Study the code. Annotate it. Write a book. O'Riley will publish it. Re:GPL'ing the source code is great but... (Score:1) by barzok on Wednesday December 22, @07:24AM EST (#322) (User Info) http://home.twcny.rr.com/andylevy/ From what I remember about the evolution of Quake (pre-release), I don't think you'd want to use its design doc as a reference for much. Re:GPL'ing the source code is great but... (Score:1) by segmond (segmond[at]hotmail[dot]com) on Wednesday December 22, @08:01AM EST (#334) (User Info) If you know the amount of time that game programmers put into work, you will understand that ID has no time to write design docs. As a matter of fact, I dobut they use design docs that much, gee, this is ID not IBM. As a programmer, I will tell you that the hardest thing to do after writing code is to write docs. I write code 10x more than write a doc. So usually, I try very hard to make my code my documenatation. And I belive the quake code is a great documentation. First of all, ignore the asm source, use the c part. Start out with the header files, from here you will have a great idea of the data strucutres they game will be operating on. It might sound hard, but when you do this over and over again, it becomes really easier than you think. If Quake was a console only game ie for dreamcast only. the only way to figure it out will be by reversring and pouring through the assembly source code, sounds crazy? I know guys that do such daily. :) My reflection, dirty monitor, there is no connection, to the net. Re:GPL'ing the source code is great but... (Score:1) by Teach (Graham_Mitchell@leander.isd.tenet.edu) on Wednesday December 22, @01:47PM EST (#428) (User Info) http://www.onr.com/user/mitchell/ A little background knowledge would go a VERY long way Michael Abrash was one of the engine coders at id during Quake development. His Graphics Programming Black Book, Special Edition contains not only most of his stuff on the Zen of ASM but also several (nearly a dozen) chapters on the mathematical and design underpinnings of Quake. fatbrain claims this book is "out of stock indefinitely", but if you can get your hands on a copy, it should give you a leg up on the rendering engine, at least. Barnes and Noble claims to have it in stock. Michael Abrash's Graphics Programming Black Book, Special Edition at Barnes and Noble. Michael Abrash's Graphics Programming Black Book, Special Edition at fatbrain.com -- Graham "Teach" Mitchell, computer science teacher, Leander HS You're all a bunch of whiners (Score:1) by ShaKti on Tuesday December 21, @10:13PM EST (#104) (User Info) This kind of makes me mad. You can't expect them to change their model, at this point in the game, so quickly. Be glad that one of the premeire developers on the planet is sharing a bit of his mind with all of us. This is fantastic..to say the least. Take this code and learn from it instead of being a bunch of babies. Contents of the Readme included with the Source (Score:2, Insightful) by Cycon on Tuesday December 21, @10:20PM EST (#107) (User Info) http://cogengine.linuxbox.com This is the complete source code for winquake, glquake, quakeworld, and glquakeworld. The projects have been tested with visual C++ 6.0, but masm is also required to build the assembly language files. It is possible to change a #define and build with only C code, but the software rendering versions lose almost half its speed. The OpenGL versions will not be effected very much. The gas2masm tool was created to allow us to use the same source for the dos, linux, and windows versions, but I don't really recommend anyone mess with the asm code. The original dos version of Quake should also be buildable from these sources, but we didn't bother trying. The code is all licensed under the terms of the GPL (gnu public license). You should read the entire license, but the gist of it is that you can do anything you want with the code, including sell your new version. The catch is that if you distribute new binary versions, you are required to make the entire source code available for free to everyone. Our previous code releases have been under licenses that preclude commercial exploitation, but have no clause forcing sharing of source code. There have been some unfortunate losses to the community as a result of mod teams keeping their sources closed (and sometimes losing them). If you are going to publicly release modified versions of this code, you must also make source code available. I would encourage teams to even go a step farther and investigate using public CVS servers for development where possible. The primary intent of this release is for entertainment and educational purposes, but the GPL does allow commercial exploitation if you obey the full license. If you want to do something commercial and you just can't bear to have your source changes released, we could still negotiate a separate license agreement (for$$$), but I would encourage you to just live with the GPL. All of the Quake data files remain copyrighted and licensed under the original terms, so you cannot redistribute data from the original game, but if you do a true total conversion, you can create a standalone game based on this code. I will see about having the license changed on the shareware episode of quake to allow it to be duplicated more freely (for linux distributions, for example), but I can't give a timeframe for it. You can still download one of the original quake demos and use that data with the code, but there are restrictions on the redistribution of the demo data. If you never actually bought a complete version of Quake, you might want to rummage around in a local software bargain bin for one of the originals, or perhaps find a copy of the "Quake: the offering" boxed set with both mission packs. Thanks to Dave "Zoid" Kirsh and Robert Duffy for doing the grunt work of building this release. John Carmack Id Software GPL destroys commercial exploitation (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:42PM EST (#129) the GPL does allow commercial exploitation Only on a cold day in hell. Re:GPL destroys commercial exploitation (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:17PM EST (#183) just requires a bit of creativity. just ask redhat. Re:GPL destroys commercial exploitation (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @05:00AM EST (#295) Actually... If you where to sell a game based on this code.. Your datafiles could very well be licenced MUCH differantly and restricted. Games are only 10% code and 90% content, or something like that. Models, Levels, art, story line (well in some games), music, sound, etc are all required parts in a game. You can very well design a new game using this code and make a good profit from it (that is, if people care for it) because people could not PLAY the game, even if you release your modifications.. that is, unless they design their OWN levels, art, etc. Where Quake3 came from... (Score:1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:23PM EST (#109) People have been saying that it's good it's open-sourced because it no longer has any sale value etc. Of course no-one will buy copies of q1 anymore, but what no-one has realised yet is that Quake 3 was descended from the q1 code. When id started work on quake3 they completely scrapped the quake 2 source. They went all the way back to quake 1, mainly because the many of the quake 2 methods were not flexible enough to allow stuff they wanted to do in quake 3. So although it may "have no value" to the normal person out there it is an extremely valuable source to any game developer or even just a hobbyist. Imagine what the Unreal team might have done if they'd had something like this to start on, instead of having to create their own engine from scratch. (Don't forget that the Unreal effects are comparable to q3a's effects right now!) The Ultimate Marketing Move... (Score:2) by vitaflo on Tuesday December 21, @10:35PM EST (#116) (User Info) http://www.vitaflo.com I think John Carmack is by far one of the most talented programmers in gaming (or perhaps anywhere else) today. This code release only confirms how cool he is, and possibly, what a good marketer he is as well. Consider the following: Geeks love games. Quake makes Id no more money. Geeks respect John Carmack. John Carmack GPL's Quake. Geeks respect John Carmack and Id 10-fold. Geeks watch Id more closely. Id releases Quake III. Geeks are more likely to buy Id products. Id's profits go up. Smart move, smart move... Re:The Ultimate Marketing Move... (Score:1) by garcia (garcia@tusa.org) on Tuesday December 21, @11:37PM EST (#202) (User Info) http://www.tusa.org I would only buy Q3 for one reason... Cause I have been playing Q1 since its release. My Q1CTF clan has been around for over 3 years and is still playing... We appreciate all the work that has been done on this game. It is one of a kind. I never have known a computer game to last this long anywhere... Q1 is just incredible, Q2 wasn't so incredible, and I really don't like the looks of Q3CTF so I may never switch. The thought of not having a grapple in CTF is ridiculous, but who am I to say? Just my worthless .02 -/- Bill -/- glibc quake? (Score:1) by Mao (pingshun_c@yahoo.com) on Tuesday December 21, @10:36PM EST (#118) (User Info) Great, now if only someone (i am not competent) can build linuxquake linked against glibc, I no longer need to keep that damn libc5 thingy on my box. Yes! Yes! Yes! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @06:54AM EST (#312) Here's the first challenge for a Quake Hacker - release a Glibc Quake. SERIOUS bonus points for the first person to do it! I bet nobody can do it before Xmas. Prove me wrong! glibc quake, here you go! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @05:22PM EST (#449) glibc(2.0) quake works for me, at own risk... http://www.sudac.org/~napolium/other/quake_glibc/ The only and only - Duke 3D (Score:1) by The_Jazzman (t@cx) on Tuesday December 21, @10:38PM EST (#122) (User Info) http://www.atari.co.uk Groovy, I like quake as much as the next man, but... I've always had a soft spot for Duke Nukem 3D, if only for the lightswitches and power sockets that are interactive... I want my Duke source code ;( We can all wish... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:53AM EST (#267) I would very much like to see a version of Duke3d for linux, the source of course, would be an added bonus... Off Topic: Linux Game Programming (Score:1) by trog on Tuesday December 21, @10:44PM EST (#131) (User Info) What are some good introductory texts on game programming for Linux? By introductory, I mean tutorials that seek to teach technique, not how to code (I've been coding in C and C++ for almost ten years now). Re:Off Topic: Linux Game Programming (Score:2, Informative) by kijiki on Tuesday December 21, @11:21PM EST (#190) (User Info) If you've been programming for 10 years, just buy Steven's Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment to learn how to do basic OS stuff in unix, and get Computer Graphics, Principles and Practice, by Foley, van dam, et al. to learn how to do the graphics. Finally, the OpenGL redbook will round you out as far as graphics APIs go. For sound, go find the Open Sound System tutorial on the web. That and some elbow grease (experimenting is the only way to learn) will have you writing games as quickly as is possible. top 7 things I'd like to see with quake (Score:3, Insightful) by tap on Tuesday December 21, @10:56PM EST (#145) (User Info) http://staff.washington.edu/xyzzy/ 1. Versions compiled for glibc20 and glibc21. 2. Support for 24 and 32 bpp modes in the X version. 3. Support for fbcon instead of the ancient svgalib. 4. Make the X version change resolution and center the screen before it grabs the mouse. 5. Use scroll-lock to grab the mouse, ungrab the mouse on pause. 6. Support for wheel mice. 7. Sound support using ALSA. Re:top 7 things I'd like to see with quake (Score:1) by segmond (segmond[at]hotmail[dot]com) on Wednesday December 22, @07:49AM EST (#331) (User Info) Why don't you add one of these things? Or are you one of those, who only lame around while others code. My reflection, dirty monitor, there is no connection, to the net. Re:top 7 things I'd like to see with quake (Score:1) by Andrew Cady (afcady at home.net) on Wednesday December 22, @08:42AM EST (#355) (User Info) You can already bind keys to change mouse-grabbing, FYI... Hmm ESD sound would be great.Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song? What about Bluesnews? (Score:2) by Saraphale (simon@surfers.org) on Tuesday December 21, @10:58PM EST (#150) (User Info) Maybe I'm missing something, but if Quake 1's source code is only just being released, then what's here? Now, the files look quite small, but what are they if not the Quake 2 source code? Simon. Re:What about Bluesnews? (Score:1) by cwj123 on Tuesday December 21, @11:08PM EST (#167) (User Info) That's the game source, not the actual exe source, that stuff just allows you to modify the game itself (the "play" of the game), not the actual program. Different source (Score:1) by barzok on Tuesday December 21, @11:13PM EST (#174) (User Info) http://home.twcny.rr.com/andylevy/ That's the source for the "game" code, the gamex86.dll or whatnot. The logic, if you will - entities, enemies, weapons, etc. This is the DLL (or .so) that you'd replace to play a mod such as CTF, Lithium, etc. It's NOT the rendering engine or anything else like that. Re:Different source (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:15PM EST (#179) That's the source for the "game" code, the gamex86.dll or whatnot. The logic, if you will - entities, enemies, weapons, etc. This is the DLL (or .so) that you'd replace to play a mod such as CTF, Lithium, etc. But a GPL'd DLL automatically GPL's anything you DL the L into! Eureka, you're free! I'm not trolling, damn it. This is important. Re:Different source (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:14AM EST (#225) Excellent. We have a Microsoft plant trying to make Open Source proponents look like idiots. Why don't you do the Open Source movement a favor and *DIE*? Thanks. Re:Different source (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:25AM EST (#231) Thats not released under GPL Re:What about Bluesnews? (Score:1) by Slay (SPAMsisterslayME@tvd.HARD.be) on Wednesday December 22, @03:36AM EST (#284) (User Info) http://www.sterkwater.net/~slay/ These are the sources that drive the objects in the Quake II world. Just like the QuakeC sources in Quake, only this time it's genuine C code that sits in a shared library or DLL. So, no, it's not the engine as such.--- NT is silly in the way that it doesn't work, and it's sick in the way that it does work. In a way. Re:What about Bluesnews? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @05:28AM EST (#298) That is just for the file gamex86.dll (windows) and/or its Linux equivalent, not for quake2.exe Re:What about Bluesnews? (Score:1) by mxs (mxs2099@hotmail.com) on Wednesday December 22, @06:21AM EST (#307) (User Info) That are the sources for Quake 2 Mods, Tools, and other released stuff by id. It´s not the engine, it´s not the data. --mxs YEEHAW (Score:1, Offtopic) by Dr IOStream on Tuesday December 21, @11:19PM EST (#186) (User Info) http://jlane.cjb.net Yeehaw! Time to make SHAKE ~Jay (Negative Seven) Thank you id!!! (Score:1) by E-TiE on Tuesday December 21, @11:22PM EST (#191) (User Info) I don't care what anyone might say about id software, but releasing their code like this is simply one of the best things they have done for the graphics/games coding community. I, for one, am very (x 1000..) thankful. Thank you very much John Carmack and crew, such efforts are most appreciated. --e!----------------------------------------------- Unix _is_ user friendly, it's just particular about who its friends are... Apogee Follows The Open Source Wave (Score:2, Funny) by [TWD]insomnia on Tuesday December 21, @11:28PM EST (#196) (User Info) For Immediate Release Garland, TX - In the age of free software releases, president of Apogee Software, Scott Miller, has just announced that he will release the source code for one of his most successful shareware title to date, The Adventures of Kroz. "People only knows how to make 3D games today", said Miller. "By releasing The Adventures of Kroz to everyone, I hope to share the knowledge of moving ASCII characters around", he said. We have been in contact with some very reliable sources from Apogee/3D Realms that there is already some groups working on an updated version of The Adventures of Kroz, supporting Direct3D, OpenGL, and Glide. "This will be an enormous contribution to the open source community", he said. The Kroz series is one of the most successful of all times. Hey insomnia i think your crazy =) (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @12:10AM EST (#221) HEHEHE but i like the idea of kroz but i didnt get it to much can you give me more info insomnia tommorow in #clan_twd Re:Apogee Follows The Open Source Wave (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @09:26AM EST (#368) Awww c'mon let's get Infocom to release the source for ZORK. Then I'll be happy- Re:Apogee Follows The Open Source Wave (Score:1) by mlc (nospam-mlc67@columbia.nospam.edu) on Wednesday December 22, @07:10PM EST (#456) (User Info) http://www.mlc.nu/ Ah, Kroz! I remember Kroz. Perhaps if I ever get around to installing DOSEMU, I will try to find Kroz. Then again, I can always play NetHack, which is kinda similar. Only different. Apogee still has some of its old games availible for download at the bottom ofthis page (They still expect people to register them. Bah.) And two of their really old games (Supernova and Beyond the Titanic) are freeware (beer, not speech). According to the 'official' Apogee FAQ, section 2.4.1, "[The Kroz series] was finally discontinued in early 1999 and is no longer availible from Apogee." Pity.El pueblo, unido, jamás será vencido. Mods and GPL? (Score:2) by spinkham on Tuesday December 21, @11:29PM EST (#197) (User Info) I have seen a lot of whining about quake1 data file here(an dumb arguement), but no one has addresed the issue of GPL'd quake1 + mods. I believe quake1 doesn't directly link with mod code, but has a sort of c interpreter built in. The mod code must then be parsed and run on that interpreter. Is it legal to: 1) Use GPL'd quake1 with non-open mods? 2) Distribue quake1 with non-open mod code files? Re:Mods and GPL? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:38PM EST (#203) The answer is that yes, you can do those things, but you are violating the spirit of the GPL. That would be a non-free thing, tricking the GPL to make nonfree closed software that gets you rich from immoral licensing scams. You would be very very wicked! May a thousand and one headlice from Richard's hair infest your pubes! Re:Mods and GPL? (Score:2) by spinkham on Tuesday December 21, @11:47PM EST (#206) (User Info) ;-) Why thank you! I was actually concerned about playing mods that others have made, not creating non-free ones myself. Re:Mods and GPL? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:48PM EST (#208) You should not play other people's nonfree mods. It is morally incorrect. Another Day, Another FSF War (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:32PM EST (#200) I know I should not go reading slashdot at 06:30, but I go to work early so I could take off early later in the week. And what do I find hier waiting? Another GPL flamefest. Didn't we gesterday have one or two of these already? And the day before? And the day before that? How can I kill any article that mentions the FSF or the GPL in it? Anything else is pointless, because always the flamewar comes. Free software writers have no time for more GPL wars. Bots, "blessed binaries", etc.. (Score:2) by spinkham on Tuesday December 21, @11:54PM EST (#214) (User Info) OK, now that the whole source code is released, I can forsee quite a few more bot problems. Would it be a good idea to implement another master server list that uses the "blessed binaries" system much like netrek does? For those not familiar, anyone can get source and mess with their own code, but to play on most servers, you must use one of the binaries that are certified and contain an encrypted key. There would have to be a team that would spend time checking modified code for cheats.. Is this worthwhile, or should I get used to playing with more bot-enhanced lamerz? *naughty* comments (Score:1) by named (ahenry@csc.uvic.ca.au) on Wednesday December 22, @12:11AM EST (#222) (User Info) Oh, dear... it looks like the censors forgot to go through this source. There are dirty words in there. My virgin eyes will never be the same! There should be a parental warning on this release. Imagine, a company like id teaching children to swear?? I should sue! (it's good to see that other people bitch out their code every now and the ;)-- I don't live in australia. There now you can email me if you want. Re:*naughty* comments (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:47AM EST (#266) This game has warped my fragile little mind!!! Re:*naughty* comments (Score:1) by ronfar on Wednesday December 22, @10:20AM EST (#385) (User Info) http://members.tripod.com/gamesandpolitics/ Heh, actually, this whole thing is a news article we should send to Henry Hyde, Orrin Hatch, Joseph Lieberman and others, just to see what they make of it. Of course, I doubt they are capable of understanding what it really means... Question: Is OpenSource Quake, freely distributable over the whole world, now immune to attempted government censorship in places like the US and Brazil? (Well, I guess not if they impose jail time on anyone found with a copy, but short of draconian measures...)My Signature: Join the EFF, here's why! Just thought this was important to say (Score:3, Insightful) by Dalroth (dalroth*@yahoo.com) on Wednesday December 22, @12:45AM EST (#239) (User Info) http://www.terralab.com/~bryan/ ID just released the Quake 1 Source code. That may mean nothing to some of you, but I'd like to point a few things out. I'm sure some of you are familiar with the GPL, while some may not be. The GPL is the license which most Linux or GNU software are released under. The whole principal behind this license is to guarantee that the GNU suite of software REMAIN open source. Once Open Source, always Open Source (sure, the maintainer may decide one day to take a later version off of the GPL, but the earlier versions would still be covered by the GPL). I won't get too technical here, I'm not a lawyer, but to further illustrate this point I'll quote the readme file that comes with the Quake1 Source code: "The code is all licensed under the terms of the GPL (gnu public license). You should read the entire license, but the gist of it is that you can do anything you want with the code, including sell your new version. The catch is that if you distribute new binary versions, you are required to make the entire source code available for free to everyone." That last sentence is what hurts us as a community. If you thought EQ had a bad effect on TF, well you ain't seen nothing yet. Right now, as we speak, I'm 100% positive somebody out there is trying to compile a version of QuakeWorld with some special features to give him an advantage (cheating). It's inescapable now. Cheating is now easy and simple. No more hex editing or debugging binary code, no more proxies that use some flaws in the way the game works to give you an advantage. No, now people can create real cheats, powerful cheats, cheats we can't detect and they can do it easily. Wall hacks that work everywhere regardless of the map, real autoaim, workarounds for Concs and Gas grens. The possibilities are endless. What really sucks, however, is that because Quake is now GPL, we can't create a special version, controlled by a 3rd party that we can all use and know that nobody out there is hacking it. They by virtue of the fact that Quake is now under the GPL are required to release any modifications they make for Quake to the general public, and guess what that means? There version will be just as easily hacked as regular quake. Not to even mention the logistics of getting a 3rd party working on the game, and getting everybody behind this one version of quake. The ONLY possible solution is if somebody were to get special permission from ID software itself to release a version of Quake w/o having to release the code. I find this highly unlikely, however, the GPL has it's purpose and I am fully behind open sourcing Quake. There is a lot that can be learned from the game code, and it will benefit people far more this way. TF has been on life support for a while now, but ID just pulled the plug. gg ID. gg TF. It's been fun. Time to move onto a new game however. Dalroth Formerly of Dark Shadows Formerly of Predatorz Formerly of The ShaoLIN Brotherhood Formerly of The Ministry of Pain Formerly of Tempest See you guys in UT and Quake 3. ======= To further expound on that, some people have said that there are people out there who don't cheat, and the majority of players will continue to play honorable. I do NOT disagree with that. You see, that's not the problem. It's the social implications that will arise as a result of this. You now know that the person on the other side of the internet has unlimited potential to cheat. Any time you get your ass reamed, you're going to be supicious, wether that person really cheated or not. The few people who do cheat, will cheat like bitches and will only further justify this suspicioun. Soon it'll grow to hostility as everybody distrusts everybody and the scene is torn apart at the seams. You say your clan will play honorable, you say your clan won't cheat. But how do you know player (X) isn't cheating? How do you know player (Y) isn't cheating? You WILL be suspicious. It's hard enough to NOT be suspicious as it is. That is going to be our deathknell. We all saw how we reacted to eV. That was mild compared to what can happen with this one. Dalroth ========== If you REALLY care that much, the best thing you can do is send a nice pleasant email to them asking them to allow an exception for somebody to do a closed version of the game with the sole purpose of allowing the community to survive. Spamming them, threatening them, yelling at them and accusing them is the last thing in the world you need to do. That will only shut them off from teh community completely. Personally, I think in the short run this really sucks. But indirectly, in the long run, what they have done by releasing the code will far outweigh the death of the Quake community. The projects that grow from teh quake source, and the knowlege people learn by using it and studying it will have an impact down the road, however indirectly it may be. I for one am thankfull ID did this. The game code will benefit me later in life (and boy do I ever intend on studying it and learning things work) than a few more months of TF will. HendriX-uNF wrote: > while some people might consider this as a ground > braking present from ID, its also the death bell of > the community that we played TF with. This move that > ID just did was nothing more than to push people to > play Quake 3, in other words they killed a community > to create another one. > > I will never think in any way that John Carmack did > not know this. He knew quite well that if he killed > TF, he would gain unbelivable amounts of money while > pushing people towards the Quake 3 scene. Although > this "push" is not that obvious to some, to our TF > community, its going to strike like lightning in the > next couple of weeks. > > Thx ID for creating this community, no thanks for > killing it. > > HendriX-uNF Re:Just thought this was important to say (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:07AM EST (#248) Personally, I'd be much happier to know that the games I'm playing aren't installing backdoors on my system, or sending my credit card number, thanks to the fact I've reviewed the source code. The "only trust a single binary version" approach gives the maintainers of the binary the power to trojan your system, AND cheat in the game, without any means of you detecting it. If the game is designed to depend upon each player's copy not cheating, then it is mathematically impossible to guarantee a fair game. Think about it. This has nothing to do with open source or not. If you DO want a fair game, you'll have to invent one that runs off a central server which arbitrates all actions. Then you have a single point of trust-- the server. As long as you are depending upon the clients to not cheat, you cannot guarantee anything. Re:Just thought this was important to say (Score:2) by 0xdeadbeef on Wednesday December 22, @08:37AM EST (#353) (User Info) If you DO want a fair game, you'll have to invent one that runs off a central server which arbitrates all actions. Then you have a single point of trust-- the server. As long as you are depending upon the clients to not cheat, you cannot guarantee anything. To a large degree, Quake already does this. If I remember correctly, the server makes all decisions on collisions and movement. The client simply says "I want to move here, I want to rotate this much, I want to fire a rocket, etc.." The biggest problem is the ability to create client that completely ignore the rules on redering the scene. It will be much like the feature in qtest that allowed people to turn off texturing and shading, which, though it made the maps hard to navigate, also made all other players and objects stick out like a sore thumb. Now people will be able to play this game with no lighting, or with flat shading, and it will be much easier to see. Of course, it will also be possible to integerate "Stoogebots" into the client, but that's always been a problem, and those people are usually pretty easy to identify. Its the ability to add small, undetectable advantages that will ruin the game. I really hope Carmack had altrusitic motives in releasing the source. The proximity to Quake 3's release makes me suspicious. There are a lot of us "old school" Quake players who prefer it to Quake 2, for it's faster response time and less use of system resources. Though releasing the source may spawn a great deal of community creativity, I, like the original poster on this thread, think it is going to the kill the actual Quake "gaming" scene. Now to get my Quake fix, I'll have to play Quake 2 (yeck), or buy Quake 3 and play on those servers. (And also buy a whole new system that will be able to run it!) \begin{Homer}Sure Carmack is generous... LIKE A FOX! \end{Homer} Re:Just thought this was important to say (Score:3, Informative) by ewhac on Wednesday December 22, @02:37AM EST (#273) (User Info) http://www.best.com/~ewhac/ If you thought EQ had a bad effect on TF, well you ain't seen nothing yet. I'm not familiar with 'EQ' and its relationship to TeamFortress. Could you provide a pointer to some historical background? What really sucks, however, is that because Quake is now GPL, we can't create a special version, controlled by a 3rd party that we can all use and know that nobody out there is hacking it. Complete disagreement. In fact, it is now easier to do this. QuakeWorld in fact implements this to a very limited degree by transmitting checksums back and forth on the models and maps being used by the client and server. Apply these checksums or, if you prefer, an MD5 digest to the client and server binaries and you should be able to build a web of trust fairly easily. Set up a Web server containing a known "cheat-free" version of the QuakeWorld server and client. Use GPG to sign the binaries and source archives. Allow peer review of the code, and allow reviewers to co-sign the cryptographic signatures on the archives. Over time, people will come to trust you as a source of cheat-free clients and servers. This next step is a bit harder, but it should be possible to come up with an authentication method that a server can use to assure to a very high degree that the client is uncompromised; and that a client can use to likewise verify a server. Schwab Re:Just thought this was important to say (Score:1) by David A. Madore (david.madore@ens.fr) on Wednesday December 22, @07:00AM EST (#316) (User Info) http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/ Bzzzt. You lose. No matter how you twist it, you can't get around this: if the server is Open Source, all the cryptographic protocols and the keys will be available for anyone to see, and consequently for anyone to spoof. There is no way to check that the client is uncompromised, because only the client can check that, and it can be compromised by definition. Actually, if you allow yourself one secret key, there is a theoretical method, but it won't work in practice. Cryptologists have invented a protocol called computing in hostile environment'' which is a way of using hostile computers to perform secure computations (in the sense that the hostile computers can, of course, refuse to carry out the computations, or they can tamper with it, but you'll always know about it). Theoretically, this could be used for a networked game like Quake. In practice, it is unusable because this protocol requires one request and reply on the network for every elementary operation being performed. Re:Just thought this was important to say (Score:2) by John Carmack on Wednesday December 22, @08:30AM EST (#348) (User Info) How about this: Make a closed source program that acts as an exe loader / verifier / proxy for the open source main game. John Carmack Re:Just thought this was important to say (Score:1) by David A. Madore (david.madore@ens.fr) on Wednesday December 22, @01:33PM EST (#427) (User Info) http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/ Ah but there you're just bringing part of the server on the local machine without changing much: how is the proxy supposed to verify that, once the (correct) binary has been loaded and started, another program won't ptrace it, and execute an (incorrect) binary instead? This doesn't work either. There is no solution to this problem, period (and, by a deft syllogism, we conclude that there is no problem ;-). The correct'' cryptographic solution is computationally unfeasible, and all other solutions are instances of security through obfuscation'' which, as all experience has shown, just doesn't work. Having the verifier local helps a lot (Score:1) by pasti (pasti@SPAMMERS.GO.TO.HELL.dlc.fi) on Wednesday December 22, @03:57PM EST (#441) (User Info) You're now forgetting something: If/When the proxy/exe loader whatever is local, it can count checksums ITSELF. It's local, it has all (normal user) rights to the filesystem etc. Why not to use this method? I think exe loader would work better on this. Read the binary, count checksums and execute only if it's what it's supposed to be. Re:Having the verifier local helps a lot (Score:2) by David A. Madore (david.madore@ens.fr) on Thursday December 23, @08:25AM EST (#471) (User Info) http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/ It can think it counts checksums, but you can spoof it all the way. Ever notice? You can do anything with a program by using the ptrace() function call and/or the LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable. You can make the loader think it's checksuming one file whereas in fact it's checksuming another, and all sorts of weeeeird things like that. Even without getting into ptrace(), there's an obvious race condition in this read the binary, checksum and execute only if correct checksum'', since the exec() system call demands a filename and afaik there is no fexec() call which would take an already open fd to exec. Easy solution (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @08:48AM EST (#359) Add to the code a call to a "Verifier" function contained in a closed source binary. This function performs some sort of check on the quake binary to make sure it is valid. Since the verifier binary is closed source, no one can fiddle with it. Re:Just thought this was important to say?!?! (Score:1) by ZephyrAlfredo (mbuttreyatbigfootdotcom) on Wednesday December 22, @09:40AM EST (#371) (User Info) http://www.telusplanet.net/public/mbuttrey/ Your post, while erudite, smacks of fear and paranoia. These problems faced by a GPL'd Quake are trival and not dangerous. As you should know, solutions have been debated and implemented for open source authenication many times. Indeed, open source is far easier to protect than most closed source apps - if your beloved TF had believed this it wouldn't have had to release so many versions. I submit: iD is friendier and more altrustic than TF. Every day. I submit: you do not fully understand what open source means. I submit: your personal website is ugly and non functional. (Hah! :) Michael Buttrey Re:Just thought this was important to say?!?! (Score:1) by Dalroth (dalroth*@yahoo.com) on Wednesday December 22, @10:49AM EST (#393) (User Info) http://www.terralab.com/~bryan/ If you can tell me a way to GUARANTEE that a client is a valid client, and not a modified/hacked client, I'd like to hear it. The man himself, John Carmack is the only one who has come up with a reasonable solution. The problem isn't a matter of security or authentication, it's a matter of client validiation. How do you validate that the client is indeed a proper correct client? With the code available, it's very easy for someone to spoof the CRCs, checksums, and weird buffer overruns that you might use to authenticate it. Open source *IS* good, because people can look at it and ensure that you're security/encryption methods are not flawed. But as I said, this isn't a security issue, it's a validation issue. I submit: that the second half of your post was absolutely and completely uncalled for. Re:Just thought this was important to say?!?! (Score:1) by ZephyrAlfredo (mbuttreyatbigfootdotcom) on Wednesday December 22, @11:30AM EST (#403) (User Info) http://www.telusplanet.net/public/mbuttrey/ The last half of your post was also uncalled for, as it reported a slanderous, biased viewpoint from HendriX-uNF. Anyway. Somebody named 'spinkam' was the first to suggest 'blessed binaries' as in 'netrek'. I comment that it is illegal to create a hacked binary to distribute without releasing the source. Finally, it is relatively simple to cheat at cards. Basically anyone could be doing it, and you wouldn't notice. But do you stop playing cards? No. You play, sometimes just with trusted friends, but you keep playing. Playing for money will always be completely secure, since you'll probably have to d/l a new binary right as the game starts. Re:Just thought this was important to say?!?! (Score:1) by Dalroth (dalroth*@yahoo.com) on Wednesday December 22, @03:35PM EST (#440) (User Info) http://www.terralab.com/~bryan/ No the last half of my original post was absoutely called for, as my point in posting it was to promote others who would take such similar and extreme actions, which ARE absolutely uncalled form, to calm down and be more reasonable. It's no different than the Linux crazies go go off on sending hatemail to any company that bashes Linux. If you present yourself in a mature confident manner, you'll accomplish a lot more than by being rash and posting/sending hatefull things without thinking about how they might affect others. That is why I included it. He is not the first, nor is the the last to bring up some ridiculous way of "screwing" id back, and that is CERTAINLY NOT something I want to see. I am very happy ID released the code, though I definitely do not like the implications it will have on the game I play. I'm just glad there are other interesting games coming out now that have finally drawn my attention away from TF, because for the last few years everything else has paled in comparision. Re:Just thought this was important to say (Score:1) by fsck (hey@fsck.you) on Wednesday December 22, @12:49PM EST (#419) (User Info) "TF has been on life support for a while now, but ID just pulled the plug. gg ID. gg TF. It's been fun. Time to move onto a new game however." Weapons Factory for Quake 2 is a joy. gg Dalroth. I disagree absolutely (Score:2, Insightful) by The OPTiCIAN (c j m t u r n e r @beoscentral.com) on Wednesday December 22, @12:46AM EST (#240) (User Info) http://www.beoscentral.com/ >know why seti@home and distributed.net don't >release their source code? It is because the chance >of people hacking the code and wrecking the >system outway the benefits of letting people have >access to the code. No. It is one of the basic rules of producing a secure system that you assume that your code and model is and will be open for anybody to look at. You have to make it secure with this assumption. Things are too easy to reverse engineer for it to be worth your time pretending you have some sort of 'secret' approach. Believe with me, my saplings. Re:I disagree absolutely (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:12AM EST (#251) No, it's because it's mathematically impossible to spread out a compute job the way that distributed.net or seti does, and also trust that the clients are performing an honest calculation. They are basically hoping that no one is going to reverse engineer their clients to return fake information, and thereby ruin the entire project. (in the case of distributed.net, imagine if a client decided to just reject every key combination it tried-- and skipped over the actual key in the process!) The only way they can avoid this problem would be to triple the work necessary-- have each block of the calculation performed 3 times by 3 different machines, and "veto" any incorrect (bogus) answers that don't agree with the other two. For all we know, they may be doing this already :) Obviously this only works as long as the vast majority of the people on the system are not trying to screw up the calculations. Once a large portion of users start sending bogus data, they have no choice but to discontinue the whole thing. Re:I disagree absolutely (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:14AM EST (#252) I should point out that they don't have to triple the work, just double it-- compute everything twice, and throw out the result if the two disagree. (and then investigate without tipping off the people running the bogus clients right away) Re:I disagree absolutely (Score:1) by BinxBolling on Wednesday December 22, @10:21AM EST (#386) (User Info) I should point out that they don't have to triple the work, just double it-- compute everything twice, and throw out the result if the two disagree. (and then investigate without tipping off the people running the bogus clients right away) You may not even have to double it. If we can safely make the assumption that a client will either produce bad results on a relatively 'visible' percentage (i.e. at least 1 in 10) of blocks, or on none at all, then you can do this: Have the first block and, say, every 10th block thereafter that is handed to a client for processing be a block that was already processed by a 'trusted' client (that is, one you set up and operate yourself, and whose results you trust). If the results don't match, go back and mark all of the blocks that the untrusted client processed previously as 'unprocessed' so that they will get shipped out to other clients for re-execution, mark the client that gave the bad results as 'flawed' so that no further blocks are sent to it, and a note will go to whoever is running the show that something's up, so that he or she can deal with the client's owner, if necessary. Of course, this doesn't guarantee perfect results, since a client may have a subtle bug that happens to only show up on blocks where it wasn't tested. But running everything twice doesn't, either, since two untrusted clients may both be wrong in the same way. This sort of approach is probably only safe for non-critical applications: say, distributed rendering for those who do it as a hobby. But I suspect that the same holds true for any sort of volunteer-based distributed computing system. WindowManager on the Quake Engine (Score:2, Interesting) by xQx (will_lotto@bssc.edu.au) on Wednesday December 22, @12:46AM EST (#241) (User Info) Now that would be cool. someone needs to make an X window manager based on the quake engine giving a true OpenGL 3D desktop environment :) q3 source coming, soon? (Score:1) by Wah (t h e w a h @ uswest . net) on Wednesday December 22, @01:02AM EST (#247) (User Info) http://wahcentral.net this is from JC's .plan Name: John Carmack Email: johnc@idsoftware.com Description: Programmer Project: Quake 3 Arena Last Updated: 12/21/1999 20:24:07 (Central Standard Time) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12/21/99 -------- The Q3 game source code is getting pushed back a bit because we had to do some rearranging in the current codebase to facilitate the release, and we don't want to release in-progress code before the official binary point release. We still have a Christmas present for the coders, though: http://www.idsoftware.com/q1source/ Happy holidays! conjecture at will. information wants to be free, and, yes, that does include all your personal info. Re:q3 source coming, soon? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:23AM EST (#259) What carmack means is that the game DLL (sic) sources (what makes the difference between DM and CTF) are getting released soon. Nothing more. Although, I am looking forward to this very much. Re:q3 source coming, soon? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @03:14AM EST (#279) you are a complete dickhead. Re:q3 source coming, soon? (Score:1) by JamesKPolk (multivac @ fcmail.com) on Wednesday December 22, @07:45AM EST (#329) (User Info) He doesn't mean what you think he means. They'll be releasing the interpreted source, that mod makers will use to make their mods. This is the equivalent source that's already out for Q2. No game engine stuff to see here... please disperse. No textures?q (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:08AM EST (#249) Has anyone had only white textures appear after compiling the OpenGL version? It works fine, but everything is solid white. It compiles under FreeBSD - Quick Hack (Score:2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:15AM EST (#253) I've managed to compile it under FreeBSD in X11 mode, without sound or cdrom support (yet). All you have to do is edit the Makefile so that only X11 binaries are created, modify cd_linux.c and snd_linux.c so that they don't do anything and now you have a native FreeBSD version. No more Linux Emulation. Part of Quake 2 source included? (Score:1) by Cebrian on Wednesday December 22, @01:17AM EST (#255) (User Info) I just noticed a lot of #ifdef QUAKE2 in the WinQuakesource tree, and I was just wondering... Anyonetried to compile it? In the WinQuake/docs directoryI found also a scary INSTALL.Quake2 file...This is most likely remainders of an early experimentby JC. I recall too many differences in the games (16 bits,transparency, model interpolation) just to be the same engine. Re:Part of Quake 2 source included? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:38AM EST (#263) It appears some lines of code are there from quake2, I have tried to compile and it works, but I dont think it uses the Q2 defines. I think you need more of the source. Mostly it seems to be effects. Cmon you posers, do something useful. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @01:19AM EST (#257) HAHAH stupid open source communists. CHEATURS REJOICE! I challenge you open source fanatics to come up with a secure method to prevent cheaters from making hacked clients and servers. YOU CANT DO IT BECAUSE OPEN SOURCE SUCKS. MICROSOFT RULES Heh, Netrek solved this YEARS ago (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @11:15AM EST (#401) Netrek, in case you don't know, is an open-source team player networked game - 8 players a side over TCP/IP. It follows a similar client/server model as Quake. It had similar problems with cheater clients (borgs). It was solved by using RSA encrypted certificates embedded in the binaries. Anyone can compile the source code to the client, but a server only allows connections from known (blessed) clients. If this system gets hacked into Quake, then cheating will END. Not even binary hacked clients will work - it seems to me that there's some sort of run-time checksum involved. The people who worked on Netrek are very smart, if somewhat acidic. Quake hackers would do well to investigate their code. PS Starscreamer sucks ass! Pave the USA! Very cool thanks! (Score:1) by xeer0 on Wednesday December 22, @01:22AM EST (#258) (User Info) These threads always get cluttered up with a lot of yada, yada, blah, blah, blah... Bottom line: Cool source entering the GenePooL should not go unnoticed. Thanks id. "Hey... don't be mean." --Buckaroo Banzai I'm of Two Minds... (Score:2, Insightful) by ewhac on Wednesday December 22, @01:24AM EST (#260) (User Info) http://www.best.com/~ewhac/ I'm really setting myself up as a target for massive flames here, but this latest development has made a tough personal choice even tougher. As you all know, Quake 3 incorporates a new form of copy protection. Each copy of Quake 3 comes with a unique CD key. Basically, when you attempt to play a networked game, your CD key is sent to id Software's authentication server. If it's good, and not already in use by someone else, the server allows you to play. This scheme is to combat unsanctioned copying of their game. I have several philosophical problems with this: If id Software's authentication server dies, no one can play a networked game. Designing in a single point of failure is always a poor idea. CD keys can be revoked at their sole discretion. This can theoretically be used to shake down legitimate users by claiming their key was compromised. This vulnerability to users bears consideration. (Note that this is theoretical; id Software's management would never do this. However, how far would you trust -- oh, let's say -- Microsoft with such a scheme?) It's an attempt to impose artificial scarcity in a Universe where it doesn't exist. Digital bits are, and always have been, easily copied at zero cost, which has certain unavoidable economic consequences. Trying to build walls against these consequences is, ultimately, foolish. See my essay, Digital Sculptures, for a more detailed discussion of why this is so. id Software published Quake and Quake 2 without onerous copy protection in place (Quake 2 would check if the CD was in the drive, but that was it), and id Software made a lot of money. Now here we are at Quake 3, and we are suddenly informed that, "software piracy [sic] has become an enormous problem," without any hard data to back it up. To combat this alleged problem, hard-core cryptographic authentication techniques have been devised and implemented, presumably at significant cost to id... For a game. Moreover, id has been encouraging people to treat their Quake 3 CD keys as a secret as closely held as your credit card number. This analogy is grossly flawed in that the two numbers protect two very different things. Accidental disclosure of your credit card number could compromise your account and credit rating. However, accidental disclosure of your CD key probably won't compromise your copy of Quake 3. Rather, it compromises id's ability to sell more copies. Thus, with this flawed analogy, id attempts to conflate sales projections with personal property and reputation. Are we to presume that, if this particular form of copy protection hadn't been implemented, it would have been impossible for id to turn a healthy profit? I find this very difficult to believe. For primarily these reasons, I have elected not to purchase a copy of Quake 3. I find copy protection, on general principles, to be an unnecessary inconvenience, and smacks of an attitude of selfishness that has very little place in a Universe where scarcity does not -- and I contend should not -- exist. Lest you think I am some kind of W4R3Z M0NK3Y, let me, a legitimate purchaser and owner of Quake and Quake 2, state very clearly and ly that John Carmack and everyone at id Software deserve every last penny they receive from sales of their software, plus more besides. Carmack is an absolutely brilliant man, far above my station and ability, and deserves every Ferrari he can lay his hands on. Same with the artists. They have done an absolutely incredible job of creating compelling new worlds for us to explore. All of them have worked unbelievably hard, and earned all the rewards we might wish for ourselves, were we in their shoes. That's why this release of the Quake source code makes it so much harder for me to stick to my decision. By doing this, Carmack, Zoid, and everyone else at id have reinforced their astonishing coolness and deservedness of my support. I have been enriched by this release, which has only strengthened my respect for them. Against all "common business sense" (which is frequently common but rarely sense), these guys dropped one of the best known jewels of gaming history into the Digital Commons and said, "Here ya go." id Software have done virtually everything right. ...Except for the Quake 3 copy protection. The infinite copyability of digital bits at zero cost forces a new kind of economic model, one that is fundamentally incompatible with the market-based ecomony we know today (which depends on scarcity/inconvenience to survive). I prefer to acknowledge this new economic model, and try to find ways to live and survive in it. Copy protection, on the other hand, is an attempt to deny this reality and impose artificial scarcity/inconvenience. This is, to a very limited extent, necessary if we're going to continue to be able to develop and enjoy monsterously complex games like Quake 3 (I know I couldn't draw all those textures myself). But the fundamental nature of digital media makes this an extremely brittle solution, as any publisher beleaguered by "piracy" will tell you. Once your protection scheme is cracked, natural forces take over. I don't even pretend to have a solution to this chasm between our current market-based economy and The (Real) New Economy heralded by digital media. We as a society are still coming to grips with these new capabilities, and have only just started to form new social rules about them. This process of exploration isn't anywhere close to complete yet, so now is definitely not the time to try to bend digital bits into an economically expedient pretzel. (This is true not only for id Software, but also for the RIAA, MPAA, and all the other content providers trying to impose copy protection on the entire digital stream.) If nothing else, it will only make the social shock all the worse when Star Trek-style replicators finally turn up. id Software: Please pledge to, at some point, drop the copy protection. It is contrary to the nature of digital media, and your unique position in the industry makes me confident you don't need it, anyway. Schwab I have to disagree... (Score:1) by cliffski on Wednesday December 22, @03:36AM EST (#285) (User Info) http://www.positech.co.uk you make some very interesting points, however i must fundamentally disagree on the topic of id softwares right to use copy protection. To put my comments into perspective im an amateur games coder myself, even earn a few bucks from it (in a very small way). id software are not a bunch of kids knocking out Quake III in their spare time, they are a business that, like every other games company is taking a big gamble. I know...I know, quake 3 looks like it will sell like hot cakes, but it aint guaranteed, nothing is in the games world, especially when someone releases Unreal Tournament just before you! The amount of effort, time and money required to create a game like Q3 is astounding. It may take coders years to slave away on what you dismiss as 'just a game'. All that effort, all that time and work, and there are those who think that somehow they 'deserve' to have it for free. id Software are trying to stop people stealing their product. yes its ones and zeros, but its still the product of hard work, and if everyone took the attitude that they shouldnt have to pay for it, there would be no more games. i know you arent advocating piracy, but the flipside of the coin is that if you belive that id have the right to benefit from their work, then they MUST have the right to enforce that protection. We all know there are ways round any copy prot scheme, but we are slashdotters, do you think Joe public will be prevented from copying the game from his mates because of the key? YES he will, and so he should be. Copying games is theft, if you havent got your own unique Quake III key then you dont own it, and if you want to play it, BUY IT. The ONLY justification for complaining about copy protection is hwn it is unnecesarily inconvenient or can prevent legit owners from playing, and there is no eveidenc of this. Ill be getting my copy for Christmas, and one things for sure, i wont be divulging my CD key to anyone else. If you like the look of the game (and you can play the demo first). BUY THE GAME... "Its all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense..." - Han Solo Re:I'm of Two Minds... (Score:1) by MrEd (tones at tande dot com) on Wednesday December 22, @03:54AM EST (#288) (User Info) But it's not foolish to try and set up artifical barriers against software copying. Quake has a reputation now where every FPS player and their dog wants to get a copy and play it. ID software is now in a position where the 'unneccesary inconvenience' of copy protection will not dent their sales one bit (minus you). If they want to reap the rewards of all the hard work which they've put into it, they must prevent Quake III from suffering the same fate as Quake II, pirated beyond belief. Besides, since Q3 depends on internet access, the central CD-key database is the most logical and least inconveniencing form of copy-protection around... If their central authorization server goes down, you can better believe that it'll be back up soon. 'Till then, play against some bots. Also, Id's urging for people to protect their CD-key is simply to cut down on the number of people who give away their number to joe244243@bigfoot.com and call Id up to whine. Note: I'm not pure as driven snow, I'm in fact a fair asshole when it comes to paying for software that I use. But I fully support the efforts of software developers to protect their intellectual property from theft. It just means I'll have to go opening boxes at Wal-Mart with a pen and paper handy... (kidding, don't slaughter me, moderators...) The Institute of Official Cheer Re:I'm of Two Minds... (Score:1) by jamesbulman on Wednesday December 22, @04:04AM EST (#290) (User Info) You're missing the point on copy protection. The fact that the digital media makes it easy to copy things does not give you the right to copy those things. id Software spent allot of time, money and effort creating Quake III Arena. It belongs to them and they are well within there rights to do what is neccessary to stop people from stealing from them. Worked for Half-Life (Score:1) by DrSkwid (matt@pup.proweb.net) on Wednesday December 22, @04:42AM EST (#294) (User Info) I aint got a copy yet but I guess it's only for the Online version of the game you'll need a unique key. Just like half-life. This makes the protection a better marketing tool than most because ppl WILL pir8 the game and then when they're fed up with bot's they'll need a key to go online. Off down GAME with £39.99. If HL hadn't been this way I'm sure it wouldn't have been best SELLING game of the year. The system isn't perfect as a witness to my conenction to won.net disappearing a few times and the perrenial favourite "Your CD key is currently in use" - which didn't actually mean that just Authentication failed - take the key out of the registry and type it in again! Good luck to them. My Quake1 CD is "on loan"..oO0Oo.Eggs don't grow on trees Re:I'm of Two Minds... (Score:2) by Stavr0 (moc.oohay@essate) on Wednesday December 22, @08:30AM EST (#347) (User Info) ... worked for HalfLife and StarCraft too. - - - F0 0F C7 C8 Watch. (Score:1) by mcrandello (mcrandello@my-deja.com) on Wednesday December 22, @09:42AM EST (#373) (User Info) http://www.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=mcrandello Someone will figure out the algorithm for the cd-keys, or everyone will publish theirs. Then you shall have your wish. I wouldn't even be surprised if they take it out in their first version upgrade (similar to the 3.14 patch disabling the cd-in-the-drive requirement in Q2) Just because it's no longer the "hot potato". mcrandello@my-deja.com rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important. Re:Watch. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @11:34AM EST (#404) I think you are somewhat misinformed. Did anyone manage to create keymakers for valid ONLINE-play CD keys for Starcraft or Half-Life? No. Yes, there are bound to be keymakers for Quake 3, but these keys will only work to get the game started. You will not be able to play online unless you have a valid CD key. This worked perfectly for Starcraft and HL, and it would take you absolutely AGES using keymakers to find valid keys for use ONLINE. In other words, your ridiculous claim, 'Someone will figure out the algorithm for the cd-keys, or everyone will publish theirs' is pure crap. It hasn't happened with SC or HL. Everyone will publish theirs? DREAM ON! It would be much appreciated if you actually had *ANYTHING* to back up your stupid claims before posting it here. I will end this here before I go all out on flaming, because people like you annoy the hell outta me... Re:Watch. (Score:1) by mcrandello (mcrandello@my-deja.com) on Wednesday December 22, @12:35PM EST (#414) (User Info) http://www.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=mcrandello because people like you annoy the hell outta me Well for what it's worth I'm happy I do. Someone with such a foul attitude certainly does need something to fuel it. Just call me glad to be of assistance. Boob. mcrandello@my-deja.com rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important. Re:Watch. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @07:32PM EST (#458) so warez puppies like yourself, who will whine about anything that halts the flow of warez -- like a cd key system that actually works -- do not have a foul attitude? interesting -sreck^ndda Re:Watch. (Score:1) by mcrandello (mcrandello@my-deja.com) on Wednesday December 22, @09:27PM EST (#461) (User Info) http://www.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=mcrandello so warez puppies like yourself, who will whine about anything that halts the flow of warez -- like a cd key system that actually works -- do not have a foul attitude? interesting Actually I've been known to send people on snipe hunts when they ask about getting their free copy of Q2. It's been a while since I was active on alt.games.quake2 however I don't *think* I have become any more of a warez puppy in that time. Sorry if you misunderstood my question. Basically I was stating that there are those who *will* try like hell to get around any copy protection, and that the CD-Key thing may well be dropped, like Q2 after version 3.14 no longer required the CD to be in the drive to play period. I can't think of any reason why Id would not require it any longer, other than the fact that it was no longer the most sought-after game ever at that point. I also don't think removing that requirement made that much of a dent in their sales. About the only thing I did to piss off ID was to actually get ahold of a copy of the leaked IHV test(Sorry John!), which I later deleted for HD space. I'm still buying the final product though, as soon as I can get a copy (for Linux) in my local Best Buy...If that's what you were upset about before, then sorry that's what you thought. I'll try to be more clear next time. mcrandello@my-deja.com rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important. Re:Watch. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 24, @03:45AM EST (#486) "Basically I was stating that there are those who *will* try like hell to get around any copy protection, and that the CD-Key thing may well be dropped, like Q2 after version 3.14 no longer required the CD to be in the drive to play period." i believe you are wrong in this assumption, as the cd key is in no way as annoying as having to insert your cd every time you want to play quake. a cd key is entered once -- on install -- and then the authentication process is automatic. based on this, it is safe to assume that id will not remove the cd key check. to back up this, i can mention starcraft and half-life again. they still have cd key check. i own both and have no problem with the cd key check either, and i play half-life a lot (counterstrike). i used to play starcraft a lot as well. i am sorry for blowing up. i was just a bit annoyed because you didn't realize that the system id are using is well tested on other games (similar systems, at least), and that, for instance, generating *valid* keys for *online play* is damn near impossible. the chances are very slim, to say the least. Re:Watch. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 24, @03:48AM EST (#487) "Basically I was stating that there are those who *will* try like hell to get around any copy protection, and that the CD-Key thing may well be dropped, like Q2 after version 3.14 no longer required the CD to be in the drive to play period." i believe you are wrong in this assumption, as the cd key is in no way as annoying as having to insert your cd every time you want to play quake. a cd key is entered once -- on install -- and then the authentication process is automatic. based on this, it is safe to assume that id will not remove the cd key check. to back up this, i can mention starcraft and half-life again. they still have cd key check. i own both and have no problem with the cd key check either, and i play half-life a lot (counterstrike). i used to play starcraft a lot as well. i am sorry for almost blowing up. i was just a bit annoyed because you didn't realize that the system id are using is well tested on other games (similar systems, at least), and that, for instance, generating *valid* keys for *online play* is damn near impossible. the chances are very slim, to say the least. i don't know how many times i have repeated this point in other situations :-/ anyway, you won't see the cd key check disappearing. id would be fools to do that. right now, warez puppies all over the world are ripping the hairs off their lil' heads because they have to *buy* a game. and the money are flowing into id's pockets. and they deserve it. Re:Watch. (Score:1) by fsck (hey@fsck.you) on Wednesday December 22, @12:56PM EST (#421) (User Info) "Did anyone manage to create keymakers for valid ONLINE-play CD keys for Starcraft or Half-Life? No." Yes. Its called brute force guessing, you should see a similar project at distributed.net Such methods of brute guessing are bound to turn up a valid key, sooner or later, and maybe that key is still shrink wrapped in CompUSA's warehouse, so you get to play all you want after downloading the quake3 iso off warez. Now little Jimmy buys that quake3 game and he cant play. Whoops he is FUCKED. That is what is happening right now, and if I EVER get a refusal for my PURCHASED quake3 key I am going to FUCKING LOSE IT on iD. This copy protection scheme sucks. Re:Watch. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @07:23PM EST (#457) "Such methods of brute guessing are bound to turn up a valid key, sooner or later, and maybe that key is still shrink wrapped in CompUSA's warehouse, so you get to play all you want after downloading the quake3 iso off warez. Now little Jimmy buys that quake3 game and he cant play. Whoops he is FUCKED." The problem is that such methods take far too much time. The number of possible keys is huge and the number of VALID keys is tiny compared to the total number of keys. To test the keys, you would have to go through a lot of hassle, and it would ultimately cost more time and money than it's worth, and you might not even find a valid CD key! "That is what is happening right now, and if I EVER get a refusal for my PURCHASED quake3 key I am going to FUCKING LOSE IT on iD. This copy protection scheme sucks." Mind telling us why this hasn't been a problem for Starcraft and Half-Life? Why do I have this feeling you are saying this because you don't want to pay for the game? Oh yeah, and is a CD key copy protection? Does it prevent you from taking backup copies of your CD? Nope. Re:Watch. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @11:48AM EST (#407) Supposedly, r33t.org has one already. r33t Re:I'm of Two Minds... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @02:30PM EST (#432) I'm really setting myself up as a target for massive flames here, but this latest development has made a tough personal choice even tougher. Talking about CD keys, which worked so well in HL and SC. snip - explanation... I have several philosophical problems with this: Let's see then... If id Software's authentication server dies, no one can play a networked game. Designing in a single point of failure is always a poor idea. First: Are you sure it's *one* server? Second: If the auth servers go down, they will be back up immediately. CD keys can be revoked at their sole discretion. This can theoretically be used to shake down legitimate users by claiming their key was compromised. And the point would be? It would only create more work for id. And what you are saying now is like saying "the knife they sold you can theoretically be used to stab someone in the back", for instance. id would only lose customers. Silly. It's an attempt to impose artificial scarcity in a Universe where it doesn't exist. Digital bits are, and always have been, easily copied at zero cost, which has certain unavoidable economic consequences. Easy to copy? Maybe. That is why they included this CD key system, to make people buy the game to get a valid CD key. Don't you see? Trying to build walls against these consequences is, ultimately, foolish. I am afraid you represent the foolishness here. This has been done already, with huge success. Need I even remind you of the two mega-hits, Starcraft and Half-Life? When people wanted to play online they were *forced* to buy a copy of the game to get a valid CD key for *online* play. The "walls" worked! Blah blah; saying id shouldn't do anything about software piracy now, even thouch the technology is available. Blah blah. [...] "software piracy [sic] has become an enormous problem," without any hard data to back it up. Is there any doubt about this fact? To combat this alleged problem, hard-core cryptographic authentication techniques have been devised and implemented, presumably at significant cost to id... Obviously, it works, and the money they lose, they more than get back when people are *forced* to buy the game for online play. For a game. What a foolish remark. Considerable effort has been put into Quake 3. This is insulting to id, and an apology would be in place. [...] However, accidental disclosure of your CD key probably won't compromise your copy of Quake 3. Rather, it compromises id's ability to sell more copies. Thus, with this flawed analogy, id attempts to conflate sales projections with personal property and reputation. Of course. Id are into this for the money. And if someone gets your CD key, it will be disabled and you won't be able to play online. The protection works and id make money. Flawed? Your arguments are flawed. This excellent business idea taken in use by id is not. Are we to presume that, if this particular form of copy protection hadn't been implemented, it would have been impossible for id to turn a healthy profit? I find this very difficult to believe. Again you speak as if id were into charity. They create games to make money. Do you hear me? I was about to crack an ugly joke about how you could take a dime and buy a clue, since nothing comes for free these days, but I won't ;-) For primarily these reasons, I have elected not to purchase a copy of Quake 3. I find copy protection, on general principles, to be an unnecessary inconvenience, and smacks of an attitude of selfishness that has very little place in a Universe where scarcity does not -- and I contend should not -- exist. This is nonsense. The CD key itself does *not* prevent you from taking backup copies of your Quake 3 CD. The CD key system is not *copy protection*. You can copy to your heart's desire - you just can't play it online without a valid CD key. Selfishness? That would be your sad face when you realized you needed to buy Quake 3 to play it online. Oh my, what a terrible thing - paying money for a game! For a game! ;-) That's why this release of the Quake source code makes it so much harder for me to stick to my decision. By doing I have difficulties accepting this, as you base your argument on something you call "copy protection". This "copy protection", doesn't, however, prevent you from copying the CD. And you wish id well, you want them to make money and they are great blah blah, but you won't buy the game because of something which won't even be of trouble? Since I haven't bought Quake 3 yet (which I will, absolutely), I don't know if they have actually included *copy protection*. If they have, smack on the wrist for that, because I have the right to backup my software. If this "copy protection" you are talking about is the CD key (which it is, apparently), smack on the wrist for you. The CD key isn't copy protection. If you have a valid CD key, there should be few problems for you. The only ones who hate CD keys are warez puppies who have copied some cool new game, only to find that they need a valid CD key to play online. Re:I'm of Two Minds... (Score:1) by ewhac on Thursday December 23, @02:23AM EST (#466) (User Info) http://www.best.com/~ewhac/ I'm probably going to lose people because of the length of this post, but I'm going to try anyway, because this issue is very important to me. There are a lot of points in a lot of different messages, which I've collected and replied to in this single post. Throughout, I will use admittedly charged terms like 'foolish', 'silly', and 'childish'. I will justify the use of these terms in due course, so hang in there. cliffski writes:i must fundamentally disagree on the topic of id softwares right to use copy protection. [ ... ] I am not disputing id's right to do anything. As creator of Quake, they have the absolute right to do anything they wish with it, including not release it at all. They don't owe us -- and we are not "entitled" to -- a single thing. No. What I'm objecting to is the foolishness of adding copy protection at all. Digital media is a universe of infinite abundance, so how do you justify hoarding anything? Don't answer yet; I'll come back to this issue later... nothing is [guaranteed] in the games world, especially when someone releases Unreal Tournament just before you! It will be very interesting to compare sales figures of Unreal Tournament versus Quake 3 in about six months. UT simply has check-for-the-CD copy protection (which is still silly, but much less silly than cryptographic authentication). if you belive that id have the right to benefit from their work, then they MUST have the right to enforce that protection. Again, I'm not disputing their right to impose protection; I'm arguing that copy protection is socially unredeeming, and could lead to bigger problems down the road. Copying games is theft, [ ... ] No, it isn't. Theft is when you deprive somebody of their property, such that you now have it, and they don't. Copying creates a new instance; the original owner still has his/her original object. I covered this in my essay. MrEd writes:But it's not foolish to try and set up artifical barriers against software copying. I contend that it is, precisely because it's artificial. Again, I'll justify this futher in a bit... If they want to reap the rewards of all the hard work which they've put into it, they must prevent Quake III from suffering the same fate as Quake II, [ ... ] The fate of Quake 2? Quake 2 sold millions of legitimate copies, and id Software made tens of millions of well-deserved dollars, even in light of the fact there were enormous numbers of unsanctioned copies. Seems to me they would want to repeat the fate of Quake 2. jamesbulman writes:The fact that the digital media makes it easy to copy things does not give you the right to copy those things. Possibly not. But in a universe where there's infinite abundance, how can you justify, in social terms, demanding people not make copies? Anonymous Coward writes:First: Are you sure it's *one* server? Second: If the auth servers go down, they will be back up immediately. id are certainly competent enough to keep their servers running. But if some nincompoop with a backhoe slices the fiber to their building, then you're hosed, and we're back to a single point of failure again. I am afraid you represent the foolishness here. [Server-side authentication] has been done already, with huge success. Just because a thing is technically possible or available doesn't make it a good idea. There are societal consequences here which most people haven't thought about. "software piracy [sic] has become an enormous problem," without any hard data to back it up.Is there any doubt about this fact? Yes. Big fat doubts with green hair growing on them. Fact: Software publishers continually lament "losing" billions of dollars a year to unsanctioned copying. They routinely refer to these unrealized revenues inaccurately as 'theft'. Yet these 'thefts' are never reported to their shareholders. Fiduciary duty requires thefts, especially of the magnitudes claimed, to be reported to shareholders in the company's financial statements. Since the "losses" from unsanctioned copying are never so reported, we may conclude that true 'theft' is not occurring. Fact: Despite "losing" billions of dollars a year to unsanctioned copying, software companies, on balance, continue to post rising profits. Micros~1, which portrays itself as the industry's biggest victim of unsanctioned copying, has posted record earnings quarter after quarter for years. Thus, these "losses" are not really occurring. Fact: No software company has ever been driven out of business due to unsanctioned copying of its products. Such business failures are due to poor quality products, poor management, or lack of business acumen. Fact: Quoted figures on industry "losses" to unsanctioned copying are completely theoretical, based on idealized extrapolations of what-if scenarios. It is impossible to gauge the precise amount of unrealized sales because it requires measuring events (sales) that didn't happen. You'd have to fork() a copy of the universe where unsanctioned copying was impossible, and compare the results against the real universe. We must not take the SPA's numbers seriously; not only are their numbers, ultimately, made up, they refuse to even disclose how they made them up. So, yes, the idea that "piracy" is a big problem is still very much open to debate. Again you speak as if id were into charity. Nowhere did I suggest id is into charity. Nowhere did I suggest that id should not be compensated handsomely for their work. What I am suggesting is that, due to the infinite copyability of digital bits, the economic and social rules are different, and that copy protection is an attempt to force an old ruleset that, in the long term, cannot work. (Hang on, we're nearly there...) The only ones who hate CD keys are warez puppies [ ... ] ...And people who want to keep the digital universe free and unfettered, so that its infinite abundance may be enjoyed by all. As for being a w4r3z pUPpY, please be assured that, once Quake 3's copy protection is removed, I will be off to Fry's with my wallet so fast, you'll see a red shift on my butt. Okay. Remember how I said I would try to justify all my weird claims up there? Here it comes: I'd like you to indulge me for a moment, and use your imagination to picture what life might be like on the Starship Enterprise. More precisely, what would life be like where everyone had access to a matter replicator? What would society be like? What would the economy be like? Let's take the economic consequences first. What happens to a market-based economy when you start handing out replicators? It collapses, that's what. A market-based economy relies on scarcity and inconvenience to operate. If you introduce a replicator, scarcity and inconvenience vanish, and suddenly you can't charge money for physical objects anymore, since your intended market is now simply copying them. Just ask your friend Brad to borrow his BMW for five minutes, stick it in the replicator, *ZAP*, and you get to have a BMW, too. Okay, so what are the social consequences of this? Do we decide that copying objects is 'theft', or even unethical? Well, really, how can you make either claim? It isn't theft, because no one is deprived of anything. I also have a hard time seeing how it's unethical. If I copy your stuff, you are not diminished or deprived in any way; you still have all your stuff. It's just that now I have a copy of it, too. Why would that be a bad thing? You may argue that such copying dilutes the value of your property. But if, on the Starship Enterprise, everyone has access to a replicator, then everyone's in the same boat (so to speak). Everything is copyable, and everyone has copies. Thus, the 'value' of your copy is not its relative scarcity (since scarcity doesn't exist), but how it enriches the quality of your life. You would select what to copy based not on what you could afford, but its utility, design, and its aesthetic qualities. Let's say you were an artist in this future world, and you had just spent the last two years building a sculpture. Everyone you show it to thinks it's wonderful. Now, as the creator and owner of this sculpture, you have the right to demand that no one copy it. You may even be able to enforce this desire with force fields of some kind. But why would you do this? Why, with infinite abundance all around you, freely available to everyone, would you want to keep this fine creation to yourself? More importantly, how would the society around you view this behavior? Might they just possibly see it as foolish? If a Star Trek universe is too abstract for you, let me offer a more familiar scenario: A schoolyard. There are plenty of balls for all the children to play with, all of them identical. Yet, invariably, some children will latch on to a particular ball and yell, "My ball!!" If someone tries to take it away from them, they will get upset. There they are, standing in the middle of an abundance of balls, all of which are free for them to grab, yet they will insist on a particular one being "theirs." We try to discourage this behavior in our children, because it's foolish. The reason I bring these analogies into play is because the exact same forces are at work in the memories of our computers. Just as the crew of the Enterprise stand in the midst of infinite material riches, we stand in the midst of infinite digital riches. Therefore, the same economic and social consequences apply to digital works. Yes, you have the right to impose copy protection, and the technical means, but if, economically, it doesn't matter, and it makes you look socially foolish, why would you do it? You're probably thinking I'm being disingenuous here. I'm not. I fully acknowledge that, as of this writing, the digital universe is a completely different thing from the physical universe. In the physical universe where we all live, we use the tool of the market-based economy to motivate people and get our basic needs met. Yet the digital universe heralds an age where this will no longer be true. The two universes are existing simultaneously side by side; how do we reconcile the two? I haven't the faintest damned idea. We are still reacting to and building social models for this new universe. And this is why I feel that copy-protection is so wrong-headed. It's an expediency that potentially short-changes our replicator-laden future by causing the wrong social models to be built. The physical universe makes it a very compelling expediency, true, but it could have staggering consequences when the physical universe finally catches up and replicators appear (and they will appear; they're too cool not to). So, if we were to acknowledge that copying is going to happen and that it's okay, how would we motivate people to create things in the first place, and compensate them for their work? This is the area that needs exploration, and I encourage everyone to think about it. To be honest, I have no idea how our society would react to replicators. It may turn out that, as primates, we are biologically compelled to be territorial about things, even when it doesn't matter. We may decide that wholesale copying of physical objects is wrong. I don't know; I'm not an anthropologist. Since we have no idea what's going to happen, I personally would prefer to work toward and build the future toward which we as a species seem to have been striving for centuries: Unrestricted, infinite abundance for everyone at zero cost. And that's why I can't support Quake 3's copy protection. It's not because Quake 3 is a poor product (it's excellent), or because id Software are evil (they're not), or even because it's too expensive. It's because copy protection is not part of the future I want to build. Schwab Re:I'm of Two Minds... (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @01:55PM EST (#476) No, it isn't. Theft is when you deprive somebody of their property, such that you now have it, and they don't. Copying creates a new instance; the original owner still has his/her original object. Well, let's see now. ID is a buisness. If you copy the game to give to one of your hax0rz buddies (not necessarily saying you, but people in general), then he is able to play the game without purchasing it from the company. The company does not get the money which it DESERVES. When you buy that software, you do not own it. You own a license with which you are allowed to use the game. The fate of Quake 2? Quake 2 sold millions of legitimate copies, and id Software made tens of millions of well-deserved dollars, even in light of the fact there were enormous numbers of unsanctioned copies. Seems to me they would want to repeat the fate of Quake 2. And was probably copied by twice the amount of people..imagine how good Quake3 would have been had ID had the funds from ALL of the people who played Quake2? Fact: Software publishers continually lament "losing" billions of dollars a year to unsanctioned copying. They routinely refer to these unrealized revenues inaccurately as 'theft'. Yet these 'thefts' are never reported to their shareholders. Fiduciary duty requires thefts, especially of the magnitudes claimed, to be reported to shareholders in the company's financial statements. Since the "losses" from unsanctioned copying are never so reported, we may conclude that true 'theft' is not occurring. If a tree falls in the forest with nobody around, does it actually make a sound? Hello, how exactly is one going to FIND these thefts? ID can't exactly go door to door checking for w4r3z monkeys. The truth is, it's bloody well hard to locate a user that's warezed a copy of a game or any software and catch them. Just because they aren't able to put down the cash and manpower to search, or have the ability to, doesn't mean the theft does not exist. Also, of course they're making profits. They would have to be, otherwise why on earth would they make the games or software since they're a BUISNESS. What are buisnesses for? To make money. To pay for things, to buy food, etc. etc. There's enough users out there that don't know how to copy cds, don't know how to get keygens, don't know how to hax0rz sum ph4t c0d3z, that they still make a profit. But that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. By not acknowledging this, I'm sorry but I think you just threw your credibility out the window. As for the rest of your arguement, it does have merit. I would honestly love to see a world where things are free and you don't have to work for them. But, whee, didn't that happen in the communist world? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sure sounds like it. If everyone gets everything, where is the incentive to do anything but sheer minimalistic work? People have been trying to figure this out for years upon years, and it's failed each and every time. If you do come up with a valid solution, feel free to let the world's political leaders know. Until then, please don't use this excuse to try and invalidate any software company's right to a fairly earned profit. Have a nice day. -Al Finally Quake for the BeOS (Score:1) by otomo_1001 on Wednesday December 22, @01:36AM EST (#262) (User Info) Finally Quake has come to BeOS! Ok I know how most of you feel about the BeOS But I will soon have a version of quake (my personal fave) on MY favorite os. Yippee! Hopefully Q3 isn't far behind. I'm betting that the GL Quake source will be the stuff to look at. Time to get out the coffee and stay up all night compiling/reading source, and skip school tomorrow. John Carmack rules. --If i had a good quote, It'd go here -me Re:Finally Quake for the BeOS (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @02:53AM EST (#278) Quake in BeOS will bring me one step closer to not rebooting. Then all I need is Java and I will delete my Windows partition. This is a good thing for everybody. YES!!! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @02:16AM EST (#270) THANK YOU JOHN CARMACK!!! Has anyone started any work on the code? (Score:2, Informative) by relnev on Wednesday December 22, @02:39AM EST (#274) (User Info) I managed to get svgalib version of quake/quakeworld working.. but the 3 jmp tables in the source cause a seg fault (my system: p3 450, linux 2.2.13, latest debian unstable branch) First one is in math.s jmp Ljmptab(,%eax,4) I had to replace this with individual tests.. (cmpb/jne/jmp/etc) I don't know whats wrong with the jmp, either it is jmp'ing to a wrong address, or its accessing wrong memory (%eax does have valid values) can't get QW to work (Score:2) by Barbarian (conanford_dont.spam_me@yahoo.com) on Thursday December 23, @01:49AM EST (#465) (User Info) Under Redhat 6.1, I compiled qwsv and qwcl. I found that at runtime, I get an error like this: Fatal Error: Pak file has 507261234 files (or something similar). There's a problem in QW/client/common.c when it reads the pak file header. Could be a signed/unsigned issue. I wonder if anyone actually tried running the output after compilation at id. Re:Has anyone started any work on the code? (Score:1) by jonehead on Tuesday December 28, @10:32PM EST (#491) (User Info) I don't know what I was doing but changing all jmp xxx(,%xxx,4)'s to jmp *xxx(,%xxx,4)'s fixed it for me. Compiles and runs fine on a bleeding edge Debian system. jone Damn this is cool (Score:0, Redundant) by diakka (diakka@localhost) on Wednesday December 22, @03:58AM EST (#289) (User Info) Words cannot describe how glad I am to see this happen. -- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley id's dirty secrets? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @05:43AM EST (#300) I haven't looked for myself, but does anyone know if this source release contains evidence of the quake backdoor? See "ID games Backdoor in quake" Do a search in page for quake at: Don't get me wrong, I love id. I think Carmak is one of the greatest game developers out there, but I'm really curious about what appears to be very evil behavior on id's part. Someone who has downloaded the code should grep it for "tms", or "192.246.40." and see what they find. everything.blockstackers (Score:1) by cazz (cazz-slash@ruff.cs.jmu.edu) on Wednesday December 22, @07:12AM EST (#320) (User Info) http://ruff.cs.jmu.edu After going to the link [?] on the above article, I realized that the link for GPL goes to the description on everything.blockstackers.com instead of a non-opinion based description of GPL. A better place for the [?] link of GPL would be to point either to www.gnu.org or http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html (the gpl).-b Wish Origin did the same (Score:1) by David A. Madore (david.madore@ens.fr) on Wednesday December 22, @07:23AM EST (#321) (User Info) http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/ I wish Origin did the same for the Ultima and Ultima Underworld games that are now too old to be sold. Despite their age, I think Ultima 6 and 7, and UW were the best computer games ever (barring `Betrayal at Krondor'', and, perhaps, older stuff like KQ1 and, naturally, Adventure). I wrote to them to try to persuade them that it would be a Good Thing(tm), but they didn't even bother to reply. GPL Virus and Quake 2/3 (Score:2, Interesting) by gonar (gonar.no.spam@all.please.bigfoot.com) on Wednesday December 22, @07:40AM EST (#327) (User Info) My understanding of the GPL is that it has virus like qualities in that all derived works of a GPL'd code base are also 'infected' with the GPL. Does this mean that Quake 2/3 are now also GPL? I find it hard to believe that there is NO shared/derived code from one version to the next. Or does the GPL allow for cases exactly like this where a derived work (Q2) exists prior to the GPL being attached to the precursor (Q1) means that the derived work is exempt? secrecy is the keystone of all tyranny. -- "If this goes on..." RAH Re:GPL Virus and Quake 2/3 (Score:1) by relnev on Wednesday December 22, @09:53AM EST (#377) (User Info) My understanding is that the owner of the code (the one who gave the code the license) can do whatever with it... The license mainly binds everyone else who uses it.. id Software can continue to sell quake without providing source* but no one else can.*Provided they don't add someone else's GPL code into the binary and sell it without source (without permission to do so.. the author could say that they can)I can be wrong... Re:GPL Virus and Quake 2/3 (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @10:10AM EST (#381) >My understanding of the GPL is that it has... then your understanding of the GPL is completely incorrect and you are a complete and utter simpleton for considering such a thing. what makes it even funnier that you said this in a public forum. :O) Re:GPL Virus and Quake 2/3 (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @10:10AM EST (#382) >My understanding of the GPL is that it has... then your understanding of the GPL is completely incorrect and you are a complete and utter simpleton for considering such a thing. what makes it even funnier is that you said this in a public forum. :O) Re:GPL Virus and Quake 2/3 (Score:1) by Darwin2000 on Wednesday December 22, @11:48AM EST (#408) (User Info) No, I believe he is right. Since to GPL it, you have to first copyright it. It does not put GPL to the source for 2 and 3. But on the other hand if someone derives a program from the GPL'd code, other then ID they will have to keep the source open. Since that is how he has hence forth liscenced it to the public. Re:GPL Virus and Quake 2/3 (Score:1) by jallen02 on Wednesday December 22, @10:47PM EST (#463) (User Info) You forget one thing. Since ID owns the software THEY do not have to release there code under terms of GPL (any of there modifications) what GPL does is just stops YOU and I from grabbing the source and making a QuakeII that is all closed and proprietary. Not a biggie tho. But know them liscences before posting comments. why VisualC now? It was done with GNU djgpp (Score:1) by segmond (segmond[at]hotmail[dot]com) on Wednesday December 22, @08:03AM EST (#335) (User Info) Everyone who has reversed the original quake binary knew it was done with GNU djgpp. Why did ID clean it up to use visual C? hrmmm. I don't have windows, and gawd knows I am not switching to windows or dos to work on quake. My reflection, dirty monitor, there is no connection, to the net. Re:why VisualC now? It was done with GNU djgpp (Score:1) by relnev on Wednesday December 22, @10:31AM EST (#388) (User Info) You can compile it in Linux after getting the source and modifying the makefile (due to build paths)They only tested it with VC++ to make sure everything was there (and that people would be able to fix the other builds if needed) Re:why VisualC now? It was done with GNU djgpp (Score:1) by UnknownSoldier (mpohores@NOBLOODYSPAMsfu.ca) on Wednesday December 22, @12:06PM EST (#409) (User Info) > Why did ID clean it up to use visual C? Because Carmack use NT and Visual C to do the bulk of his coding. A lot of us game developers do (myself included.) Cheers someone call Loki (Score:2) by tuffy on Wednesday December 22, @09:02AM EST (#362) (User Info) This would make a great "budget disc". Loki could put the Quake 1 data + soundtrack on a CD along with Quake 1 for Linux (compiled for several architectures) and the source code. Maybe even toss in a level editor or three. For a reasonable price (~\$15 ?) I'd pick it up. "Quake on Java kills at least four" -- CNN.com (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @09:18AM EST (#365) Seriously, right there on their front page. Irony can be pretty...ironic. Re:"Quake on Java kills at least four" -- CNN.com (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @09:23AM EST (#367) "God is an iron." Well thanks a heap.. (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @09:44AM EST (#375) Thanks Carmack, it's a great game but you just killed the niche of gamers that still play q1 for its simplicity and speed. Or was that your intention? To kill off communities of players that still play things like RA, CA and TF while making you no more money? Did you realise that there are some QWTF servers out there that are almost constantly full 24/7, even with playerlimits of 24. Now they are only going to be filled with accusations of hacked clients and clans modifying their servers. Some random thoughts (Score:1) by WWWWolf (wwwwolf@iki.fi) on Wednesday December 22, @09:47AM EST (#376) (User Info) http://www.iki.fi/wwwwolf/ Remember when some H@X0r HaX0rD himself into iD systems and 0wned (IIRC) Quake and Golgotha source code?It's interesting to see that these days, you don't need to =) Likewise: I read an article from an old computer mag about two school kids who HaX0r3d their way into ARPANET. Much noise. I don't think that much noise would result now if someone would get an illegitimate net access. Likewise: Now no one will make noise if someone hAx into a machine that has Quake and Golgotha source. Is "openness equals less noise from hax0r front" something? (Mindless Rambling of the Day brought to you by wolf on the run - sorry if this has any typos, I'm typing this from Nokia 9110 while in train =) - Weyfour WWWWolf, a lupine technomancer -==(RGRNCA)==- GPL vs. LPGL (off topic) (Score:1) by pothole on Wednesday December 22, @10:07AM EST (#380) (User Info) I have a question on the GPL/LGPL issue. If for instance someone releases a GPL'ed library of some sort, and I want to use it, does that mean the my code will automatically become GPL'ed because I linked to their code? Is this what the LGPL license allows? If I use LGPL code and link to it, then I can protect my code as long as when I distribute it, I distribute the LGPL stuff I used along with it? Re:GPL vs. LPGL (off topic) (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 22, @10:19AM EST (#384) have a question on the GPL/LGPL issue. If for instance someone releases a GPL'ed library of some sort, and I want to use it, does that mean the my code will automatically become GPL'ed because I linked to their code? That's what the FSF wants you to believe. They are, however, however, lying through their teeth. You cannot catch the virus from aggregating several GPL'd and non-GPL'd programs within the same script. Neither can you catch the virus from aggregating several GPL'd and non-GPL'd in the same program. Both cases are the same. The FSF will tell you otherwise. It's time to take away their LSD. :-) Actually, it would be all too easy if they were on drugs, and that's not what's happening. The true story is that the FSF know that their story is inconsistent and self-contradictory. They're clinging to this for all they can, because spreading the virus is critical to their cause. But a library can never infect you. GNUquake at sourceforge (Score:2) by spinkham on Wednesday December 22, @10:18AM EST (#383) (User Info) I have started a project at sourceforge.net called GNUquake that will be aiming to GNUify quake, make building for multiple platforms easier, improve the sound code so it works with ALSA, and whatever else you all want to add. The project will remain compatible with the binary quake release, but eventually I would like to add more features that can be used with other GNUquake servers and clients such as a "blessed binary" system to minimize cheats, perhaps protocal improvements, and again whatever is concidered needful. I am curently looking for a few people who want to help administer. Email me at "spinkham at users.sourceforge.net" if you are interested. Note that CVS hasn't been updated, as the domain isn't quite active yet.. It should be up in the next 4-6 hours... AIX port... (Score:2) by GoNINzo (gonzo(at)ironman.planetquake.com) on Wednesday December 22, @10:25AM EST (#387) (User Info) http://ironman.planetquake.com/~gonzo I actually helped port 1.08 to AIX back in 96-97. At the time, we had 1.08 available on the PC, but only .98 on AIX. and we had some pretty high powered AIX boxes. so after doing some searching, I actually managed to find the source free on the net. Anyway, the AIX support was still in there, but broken a couple places. so I patched it up, and wow, it worked! and even better than .98. then we could play against PC's again! Anyway, I talked to Zoid about releasing it, but he was very unhappy that I had gotten the source, so I thought it was against my best interest to release it (at the time, I thought the source was legal because I had found it on a regular FTP site). But IBM was still distributing Quake 1 v.98 on their Demo disks (which i'm sure they still are). Anyway, maybe i'll see if I can port it again, as my original copies are prolly lost on an old 43P.-- Gonzo Granzeau "Nothing the god of biomechanics won't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty I think your all missing a very cool point here. (Score:1) by Darwin2000 on Wednesday December 22, @10:45AM EST (#392) (User Info) Since MS has this DirectX barrier to cross developement for game programs, here is a very good and well thoughtout GPL'd Piece of code that anyone can use to make a multiplayer games. IT WORKS ON LINUX, FREEBSD, and a Ton of non opensource Unix Boxes. Here is your sound code example, your GL example, your network game server example, and a ton of other stuff. Can anyone say 3d Mud CLIENT? The Key here is the Barrier to entry just had a huge hole punched through it with a BFG5000. I've been playing Id Games since DOOM came out, and did the TeamFortress Scene for years, and there is only one thing I can say. I'm voting for John Carmack to be president. :) You rock man. --P.S. All you people whining about stuff not in or in this GPL, shut the hell up. ;) Could GPLQuake be packedged with Linux distros? (Score:2) by Dast (cfy1@ra.msstate.edu.spamtodevnullplease) on Wednesday December 22, @12:16PM EST (#411) (User Info) http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=dast I don't see any reason why not. It would make a very nice addition to a linux distro. My question is: are the pak files also GPL'ed, or just the engine? Well, either way, thangs goes to id for the great work they've done. Q1 is still the greatest game of all time! I still remember all of the fun we had my freshman year in college loading it on all of the machines in the computer lab. Ahh, the memories.M-x spook CNN has a hilarious story (Score:1) by syncsyncsync on Wednesday December 22, @05:01PM EST (#445) (User Info) Check out CNN's front page, in the World News section, third story down.... "Quake in Java Kills At Least Four" =) A Project Idea (Score:1) by mccormick on Wednesday December 22, @05:29PM EST (#451) (User Info) Here is my proposal for an idea relating to the quake source release. Why not make a Quake client that can connect to Quake2 servers, or play Quake2 demos? I know that Quake (1) and Quake2 are fairly different, however, there are many similarities. My original thoughts for this idea was to write a mod for a game like Unreal Tournament which lets you connect to Quake2 servers. Now, there would be many technical challenges with this, such as, for example, how would the game media be displayed? The textures, models and sounds could be neglected, but you'd at least need to be able to play the levels. And from my knowledge the UT level format and the Quake2 format are pretty different. I doubt this would have any real purpose; I'm mainly thinking purely from a "cool" factor. I mean, think about it. Imagine loading UT (or any other similar game) and hoping onto a Quake2 server. I just find the possible something interesting to think about :) If anyone is interested in actually trying it, the Quake2 demo (DM2) protocol is documented at http://www.planetquake.com/demospecs/dm2/ . And the Quake2 network protocol is documented at http://www.opt-sci.arizona.edu/Pandora/q2/ . Note: First, please don't moderated this as offtopic. My original idea invovled Quake2, but that the Quake code is out, it might be easier to do it with that. The two architectures are similar enough that it doesn't really matter.. Oh well, just my thoughts -- pete -- pete Re: Digital economy (Score:1) by Sponge (grahamg@dontspamme.videotron.ca) on Thursday December 23, @09:51AM EST (#473) (User Info) I see what you're saying, and I don't see any good solutions either. However, it seems plain from the evidence of most other replies to your post that the world isn't quite ready for a non-scarce economy. People just can't get their heads around the concept, let alone argue about it properly. However, one might consider (and I am loathe to bring this up on Slashdot for fear of unleashing a rash of zealotry) that the Open Source community is an example of a non-scarce economy where (some) needed work gets done and is then freely shared. And some people pay for this work. Unfortunately the number of people able to support themselves fully off of open source work compared to the number of people DOING open source work is very small - but it's a start. compiling qwcl with visual c++ 6 (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @03:49PM EST (#479) I can compile qwsv, but when i try to build qwcl or glqwcl i get errors 'Bad command or file name'. Anyone know what to do? I was also able to build gas2masm and qwfwd (both debug and release). Thanks. Re:compiling qwcl with visual c++ 6 (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @05:29PM EST (#480) I think something isn't working in the Custom Build Step. Anyone know what #define i need to change so I can build qwcl without the assembly code? Then do i have to remove the assembly files from the project? Thanks. Other ports versions? (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23, @11:53PM EST (#484) What about the Mac and the Amiga version of Quake, the source will be released also? Re:Quake (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @10:52PM EST (#140) yea that was found pretty early after q3's release sorry to bust your bubble Re:Flame Bait (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 21, @11:00PM EST (#154) HE SHOOTS HE SCORES!
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